Stackable cables?

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Nelson Baboon
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Stackable cables?

Post by Nelson Baboon » Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:08 pm

Anyone else find that the stackable 1/8 cables are a godsend with the Wiard?

They are really expensive, but I just bit the bullet and bought a bunch more, and damn - loving making lots of duplicate connections from the 311c, and getting dramatic timbral glitches. I especially like it because I left the patch as is from last night, and I totally forget what the modulations are (note to myself - cut down on the single malt)

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Post by slow_riot » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:54 am

Personally I don't think minijacks are right for the format.

When audio set ups involves more than one power supply, signal transmission becomes more complex and forethought is required to solve engineering problems in the most effective and least complicated way. i.e. from the start.

In professional gear I have witnessed all kinds of hacks and bodges to get around the earthing problems that come from unbalanced connections. The most common culprit is a disconnected safety earth pin. Apart from the problems with safety, this also causes problems with radio frequency interference as the earth connection is also available to stop microwaves getting into the circuitry.

The modules I am selling in the format will be balanced bantam only (compatible with minjacks with a simple adapter cable). I have given this a lot of thought and this is the proper way to design equipment universally compatible for professional sonic installations.

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Nelson Baboon
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Post by Nelson Baboon » Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:37 am

raises an interesting issue for me...

so, I have this system that works. 3 blacet power supplies at the moment. stackable cables running everywhere. no issues that I can tell.

I understand that there are many (most) who know way more than me about potential issues, etc - but to add stuff like you're mentioning, I would have to invest in tons of tons of these adapter cables, etc....to fix potential issues that I've never run into.

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Post by slow_riot » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:03 am

If it works for you as it is then a handful of adaptor cables isn't going to cost the earth and my designs will play fine in that context.

I don't know how long you can guarantee trouble free operation running the system without the safety earth. Should you run into the same problems that I have done working in different sonic installations with mixed set ups then the upgrade path to professional standard is there if you need.

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Nelson Baboon
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Post by Nelson Baboon » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:08 am

well, wouldn't all of my Wiard modules need to be redone?

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Post by slow_riot » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:23 am

If you came into problems it would be possible to reconfigure individual modules for bantam operation. It's not really a major job. Modules approaching 10 years will start to show problems with minijacks which need replacement anyhow, and I do think it is the right approach to gently guide proper analogue systems towards signal and power connections in line with engineering standards.

But, I'm just saying how I'm doing it for my product line, which has been informed by experience and research, and is not a decision I've made lightly. These products will be fully compatible with your current system if you do not find it necessary to change.

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carygrace
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Post by carygrace » Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:27 pm

Nelson Baboon wrote: so, I have this system that works
Then you have no cause for concern!

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Post by Nelson Baboon » Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:33 pm

carygrace wrote:
Nelson Baboon wrote: so, I have this system that works
Then you have no cause for concern!
that's what I'm trying to discern. I have a system that works, but it has worked for maybe 2 weeks or so :)

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Post by rico loverde » Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:45 pm

I never had any issues with my 300 and minijacks, I'm sure the bantam are awesome but having to get converters and also sending the modules out to get converted just wasn't worth it for me. the stackables are a ton of fun with the 300.

have you posted any audio of your experiments with the 300 Nelson?
works for Darkplace Manufacturing

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Post by thesnow » Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:47 pm

with all due respect slow_riot is trying to sell something which is great but from what I understand people have had their 300 series systems for up to 15 years at least now without any real problems... I think it's great Grant decided to adapt the optional bantam jacks to the Wiard 300 system but there was never and there isn't anything wrong with the original design from what I can see. From what I understand the 300 series has always used high quality parts and I can tell when I look at the jacks on my modules over other eurorack modules...

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Post by slow_riot » Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:48 pm

Gene, I don't want to alarm you. I'm offering guidance from my own personal point of view, which I admit is coming from an angle of perfectionism that might not necessarily be realistic if you have a rack of minijack modules. If your set up works for you now that's fine and I should be careful with the opinions I am giving as there is not a major cause for concern. I am trying to improve standards in the format going forward so I am biased. I do not have some horrible agenda though, I just love this format and want the best for it.

I will say that I don't feel comfortable supporting the Blacet PSUs, the PS550 in particular is in a metal enclosure that may also be connected to your modular. The naked live connection a few mm away from it's enclosure in several places (it may be the case that your PSU is screwed onto a piece of wood or plastic in which case the danger presented is minimised).

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Post by laserpalace » Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:04 pm

FWIW, I actually prefer the multiples over the stacks. It's a lot easier to make one global switch to alter the composition vs. rerouting individual signals.

That's actually my gripe about my Serge system, although there are obvious benefits to stacking and banana cables in general.

I will say I had some initial issues with the stacks breaking some of the minijacks on my 300. It may have had more to do with older jacks / older stacks but after a few broken jacks, and preference I abandoned them.

Welcome to the format! :sb:

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carygrace
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Post by carygrace » Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:59 pm

Nelson Baboon wrote:
that's what I'm trying to discern. I have a system that works, but it has worked for maybe 2 weeks or so :)
Rest assured that if 3.5mm jacks were inherently dangerous or evil in some way, I would not be selling them.

I personally prefer bantam too, for a number of reasons, but what is right for the individual depends on the individual situation! There is a choice of jack type because the various advantages/disadvantages of different jack formats will weigh up differently depending upon the user's personal situation.

Power supplies and safety are a SEPARATE issue, and that's the same whatever the connectors are.

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Post by carygrace » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:14 pm

Just FYI, I've deleted the duplicate posts in this thread to keep it tidy (including my own - must be some technical difficulties going on with posting at the moment).

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Post by slow_riot » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:15 pm

carygrace wrote: Power supplies and safety are a SEPARATE issue, and that's the same whatever the connectors are.
The 2 issues are closely related. Disconnecting the safety earth pin on a PSU is the path chosen to avoid problems created from mixing audio systems across multiple power supplies using unbalanced connections. Moving towards balanced connections means that safety earth can be used without causing hum, which is one of the reasons I am encouraging users to make use of that option. You should be proud of that innovation and be thankful for the time it saves from users asking how to get rid of hum! :)

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Nelson Baboon
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Post by Nelson Baboon » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:17 pm

I still don't understand the danger in the blacet power supplies, as described. Should I replace my 3?

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Post by slow_riot » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:21 pm

Hinton is the only suitable PSU on the market. It also sounds better.

My Blacet PSUs went in the trash.

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Post by Nelson Baboon » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:25 pm

somehow I doubt that I'd notice some subtle difference in sound quality (if it indeed exists) with the raucosity that I make. sounds great already.

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Post by carygrace » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:51 pm

Slight correction (OT):
thesnow wrote: I think it's great Grant decided to adapt the optional bantam jacks to the Wiard 300 system
He didn't, that is actually something I added as an option after I took over. Grant liked the idea though.

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Post by Muff Wiggler » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:57 pm

just connect the floating grounds of your Blacet PSUs together (I used a PSCONN board for this sole purpose, creating a star-layout ground) and then connect their join point (in my case this ground-dedicated psconn board) to the ground lug of the main power inlet to the system (in my case i also ran it through a ground lift switch, for flexibility I've never actually needed). Hum and safety issues all sorted out.

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Nelson Baboon
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Post by Nelson Baboon » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:02 pm

way beyond this tiny baboon brain.

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Muff Wiggler
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Post by Muff Wiggler » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:05 pm

Hinton does provide an absolutely wonderful and perfect solution that doesn't involve any workarounds and comes with a lot of peace of mind

on the other hand if you aren't having any trouble it may not be worth even thinking about it.

if you start to find buzzing when touching the tips of half-patched cables to the grounded portion of jacks (the nut holding it in place for example, or the sleeve) you may want to address this. If it's all quiet and behaved you're probably fine.

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Nelson Baboon
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Post by Nelson Baboon » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:10 pm

yeah - thanks. it's all quiet. no hum. Occasionally I scream, but that's a whole other matter.

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Muff Wiggler
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Post by Muff Wiggler » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:11 pm

:lol:

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Post by thesnow » Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:07 pm

carygrace wrote:Slight correction (OT):
thesnow wrote: I think it's great Grant decided to adapt the optional bantam jacks to the Wiard 300 system
He didn't, that is actually something I added as an option after I took over. Grant liked the idea though.
My mistake! :) I like 3.5mm cables, they're a nice and neat size and I like the immediate option of potentially interfacing the 300 system with existing Wiard frac and euro modules with no problem...

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