Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

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The Disquiet
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by The Disquiet » Thu May 14, 2020 4:09 pm

I went ahead and bought a new (old stock) SAD chip on eBay, will try and see if this solves things. Otherwise I'll look into asking someone to replace these trimmers for multi-turn ones. Thanks for all the info folks, really appreciate it!

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by djs » Thu May 14, 2020 4:11 pm

I hope it was a reputable seller, as there aren't a lot of real SAD1024s out there.
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The Disquiet
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by The Disquiet » Fri May 15, 2020 2:21 am

Ordered it here:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SAD-RETICON-10 ... SwOWtee3lJ

Hope it's legit...

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GryphonP3
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by GryphonP3 » Fri May 15, 2020 3:45 am

The Disquiet wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 2:21 am
Ordered it here:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SAD-RETICON-10 ... SwOWtee3lJ

Hope it's legit...
Looks legit. Thats a shop with very good feedback and thousands of sales, not based in china. Hope thats your problem anyway! Thats an expensive gamble. Anyway, never hurts to have extra SADs on hand
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cebec
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by cebec » Fri May 15, 2020 7:34 am

Never had an issue with the trimmers other than what I mentioned above and it was 10+ years ago. Why not send it back to Rex or Kevin Fortune rather than risk damaging things?

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Corrupt
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by Corrupt » Fri May 15, 2020 8:15 am

Went through all this myself a couple of months ago. After weeks of cautiously fiddling with B, a hair this way and that, all the while measuring the negative voltage off that one point on the PCB specified on the Ken Stone/Elby pages, it finally worked at the maximum possible setting! And yes: what comes out varies as the power supply warms up. Stay safe and persevere.

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by GryphonP3 » Fri May 15, 2020 3:08 pm

Corrupt wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 8:15 am
Went through all this myself a couple of months ago. After weeks of cautiously fiddling with B, a hair this way and that, all the while measuring the negative voltage off that one point on the PCB specified on the Ken Stone/Elby pages, it finally worked at the maximum possible setting! And yes: what comes out varies as the power supply warms up. Stay safe and persevere.
Yes, you need to crank the trimmer B sometimes. I learned on my first wad build to ignore that warning ken stone gave about not going <50%, and I have never damaged any CA3080s :p
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by dksynth » Fri May 15, 2020 6:17 pm

I've had no luck finding myself a SAD1024 so far but I moved ahead with some little chiclet boards to try get a different BBD chip working ... if nothing else it will at least restore SOME functionality while I wait for a SAD1024 to be found.

The WAD circuit is WEIRD. A friend pointed out the odd S/H timing ... as far as I can tell it is only the output of the first half of the SAD1024 that gets S/H'd and becomes delay A output, the other one gets misses it has no output when that S/H fires ... the timing is wrong. So for a true sub you'd need A)something that can be clocked into the MHz range and B)something that has both 512 and 1024 outputs.

None of this helps you on your unit of course, but I agree with what other folks said ... and to add to it I've seen some weird stuff on this STS one here. The SAD1024 bias line was cut and jumpered right into +12V! Makes no sense. If you could upload a shot of the UNDERside of your WAD boards that would be nice. I can't imagine mine was like this when built.

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The Disquiet
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by The Disquiet » Sat May 16, 2020 3:52 am

dksynth wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 6:17 pm
If you could upload a shot of the UNDERside of your WAD boards that would be nice. I can't imagine mine was like this when built.
Yes, here:
IMG-4645.JPG
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by cygmu » Sat May 16, 2020 6:27 am

dksynth wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 6:17 pm
The WAD circuit is WEIRD. A friend pointed out the odd S/H timing ... as far as I can tell it is only the output of the first half of the SAD1024 that gets S/H'd and becomes delay A output, the other one gets misses it has no output when that S/H fires ... the timing is wrong.
Confirmed on my CGS WAD.

The following scope shots show an input sawtooth (yellow), and the A (blue) and B outputs (purple). The first obvious thing to note is that the output is inverted as well as a little bit filtered. The second thing to see is that this confirms Dakota's note about which taps from the delay lines are actually being used. Contrary to the Serge marketing materials, output B is not twice the delay of output A but four times (512 buckets and 2048 buckets). In the below I start with the three signals lined up, then slowly turn up the delay, and you can see that output B's delay grows at four times the rate of A's.
WAD saw 1.png
WAD saw 2.png
WAD saw 3.png
WAD saw 4.png
In other excitement, Dakota might have called me his friend above :)
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dksynth
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by dksynth » Sat May 16, 2020 11:06 am

[/quote]
cygmu wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 6:27 am
Confirmed on my CGS WAD.
thanks cygmu! Nice to see the proof .... if my little BBD sub works I'll have a WAD as described in the "marketing materials" I guess :)
The Disquiet wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 3:52 am
Yes, here:
Thanks Disquiet but I actually mean the underside of that.

I made a mistake about mine, it has a jumper into the -12v NOT +12v

here is the photo:
96239590_628446051041702_6479024982822223872_n.jpg
and here is what the mod appears to do:
WAD mod.png
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by The Disquiet » Fri May 22, 2020 2:41 pm

Update: the SAD1024 replacement arrived and I'm happy to report that fixed my problem! I have a working Kangzeit again!

:love: :love: :love: :love:

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by dksynth » Fri May 22, 2020 3:33 pm

The Disquiet wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 2:41 pm
Update: the SAD1024 replacement arrived and I'm happy to report that fixed my problem! I have a working Kangzeit again!

:love: :love: :love: :love:
serves me right for humming and hawing about buying that same listing for my own busto panel haha ... glad SOMEone got it!

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The Disquiet
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by The Disquiet » Fri May 22, 2020 3:59 pm

dksynth wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 3:33 pm
The Disquiet wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 2:41 pm
Update: the SAD1024 replacement arrived and I'm happy to report that fixed my problem! I have a working Kangzeit again!

:love: :love: :love: :love:
serves me right for humming and hawing about buying that same listing for my own busto panel haha ... glad SOMEone got it!
Sorry to hear! Maybe you can contact that seller, he had 4 of them, maybe he has another bunch coming in at some point

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by dksynth » Sat May 30, 2020 1:31 pm

ok so first a HARD eyeroll at this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/SAD1024A-DUAL- ... 4902.l9144

secondly....

I DID go and make something that works in a WAD. I'm talking to Serge who is trying to get me in touch with Mr. Wilson himself about fine tuning some things to potentially make a true drop in replacement.
SAD 1024 mod.png
As things are right now this replacement restores function BUT output A is 1/2 speed NOT 1/4 speed as in the original and confirmed by @cygmu above.

there are some videos up of me playing with it here:
www.instagram.com/p/CAy9-owBrEv/

And if you have a fully working WAD I'd love to trade some patches back and forth to compare.
SAD 1024 installed.png
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by djs » Sat May 30, 2020 3:34 pm

dksynth wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 1:31 pm
I DID go and make something that works in a WAD. I'm talking to Serge who is trying to get me in touch with Mr. Wilson himself about fine tuning some things to potentially make a true drop in replacement.
This is way awesome.. do you think it's something you'll make available (as a pcb or whatever) once it's fine tuned?

Also, are you finding it's less picky about the trimmer settings than the SAD1024s?
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by dksynth » Sat May 30, 2020 4:01 pm

djs wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 3:34 pm
do you think it's something you'll make available (as a pcb or whatever) once it's fine tuned?
Yes once it is figured out it will be something that is available, certainly. SAD1024s are problems in lots of things unfortunately...
djs wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 3:34 pm
Also, are you finding it's less picky about the trimmer settings than the SAD1024s?
In short, yes.

the following is just my opinion/observations and may have errors but here goes...

The WAD has three bias adjustments.
Trimmer A sets input bias.
Trimmer B sets SAD1024 chip bias shared across both chips (which is why I THINK matched chips are sometime mentioned.... it stands to reason that chips from the same batch would be easier to share the same or similar bias and not be too far out.)
Trimmer C sets output bias. (again shared by both output A and B which makes balancing them hard)

On the replacement PCBs I've done, I'm using an N-channel BBD (MN3207) which only requires level-shifting of the clock to 10v and onboard power regulation to 10v as the SAD1024 is also N-channel. Used a little LDO for the 10v and a 4050 for level shifting. As it stands right now, I've kludged in a bias network per chip on the mini board to set the input per MN3207. Trimmer B on the WAD board and the bias line it feeds has been removed (relatively non-destructively... I'll get real SADs eventually I expect).

So all you set is the input and output bias for max headroom in and out.

I'm measuring a max clock speed of 50kHz (higher with CV) and min of 3kHz.... the v3207 I have installed right now are handling both extremes fine, no drop outs. So I'm kinda waiting for the other shoe to drop, find out what I might be missing here .... because it SEEMS to have worked just about painlessly....

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by batchas » Sun May 31, 2020 7:36 am

dksynth wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 1:31 pm
ok so first a HARD eyeroll at this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/SAD1024A-DUAL- ... 4902.l9144
Come on. You get 10% off!!!
You can even pay only 44$ during 12 months. A true bargain!
:hihi:


Very interested in the replacement. I saw a post on FB and it got my attention.

Several years ago I bought to a famous wiggler a Klangzeit which never worked. I had already a WAD panel (and was looking for the FreqShifter), so I was able to compare. The seller never admitted B was not working, so I had to find a solution by myself. The trimpots had already been twiddled (the blue dots were broken) but most of all the plastic was totally gnawed!

I wrote to STS to ask about trimming (+ did a muffwiggler post), got help from both, did it, no change. I checked the installed RETICONs, followed Rex instructions and it turned out one was kaputt.
Rex kindly sent to me a chip as replacement (...). Gold legs etc. But it never worked :(
So I took the 2 RETICON from the working WAD, put them in the Klangzeit to see if another chip was involved in the issue, trimmed, and it worked. Swapped one RETICON with another, checked the 4 in different combos, always only 3 were working.
So I bought one RETICON on ebay. The seller was more than kind as he sent to me 2, telling me the second one was for free. I replaced one. Trimmed. It worked. Replaced both, it also worked. It's said that the pair needs to be matched… I dunno.
Not so happy though with the sound compared to the original WAD when it arrived new from STS.

Anyway. I'd love to check the replacement in the Klangzeit and compare if one day they are ready and you decide to sell them :tu:
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by dksynth » Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:47 am

batchas wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 7:36 am
Anyway. I'd love to check the replacement in the Klangzeit and compare if one day they are ready and you decide to sell them :tu:
Alrighty, well that's you, cygmu will try them I hope, and I have one other taker to give em a spin.

current PCBs needed a kludge so I'll review that and let you know when ready.

there may not be a way around the 512/1024 output A issue with current production chips.
Kinda funny but if you mod it like I have it matches the documentation .... output A is 1/2 output B....

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by batchas » Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:00 pm

dksynth wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:47 am
current PCBs needed a kludge so I'll review that and let you know when ready.
Cool. Thx :tu:
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by revtor » Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:42 pm

So, what is the special sauce with the WAD? Two synced delays in one package? All the mysticism... but really what’s the magic? (Besides the general BBD goodness..?)

I has a soup kitchen panel years ago and sold it before I ever had a chance to power it up... great regret ... maximum synth regret
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by dksynth » Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:34 pm

revtor wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:42 pm
So, what is the special sauce with the WAD? Two synced delays in one package? All the mysticism... but really what’s the magic? (Besides the general BBD goodness..?)

I has a soup kitchen panel years ago and sold it before I ever had a chance to power it up... great regret ... maximum synth regret
Unlike any other delay I have seen, the signal out of the BBD chips is sampled and held at the same clock rate as what is clocking the chips.
This leads to very bitcrushy, textural effects at longer clock speed while still sounding "clean".

Additionally, it is quite focused on the faster side of BBD delay effects, mangling signals and used for waveshaping, not traditional delay effects.

Also it is worth a tonne of money because people keep paying alot for them.

Generally people love it or hate it. If the latter .... just wait ... usually you'll grow to love it :)

here is one play from tonight:

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by revtor » Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:46 am

Thanks DKsynth!! As usual serge explantations are cryptic and clear demos are few and far between.. you cleared it up a bit!
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by syncretism » Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:08 am

Who is the Wilson in question? I have long wondered.

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by luchog » Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:49 pm

revtor wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:46 am
Thanks DKsynth!! As usual serge explantations are cryptic and clear demos are few and far between.. you cleared it up a bit!
Not many demos out there, I'll agree. To be a bit less cryptic about things, IMO the big advantage of the WAD, and Reticon SAD delays in general, is how clean the sound is. You're not going to get super-long delays out of them, but what you will get is very clear, clean chorus, reverb, and short delay sounds; and you can get a decent degree into the longer end of the delay spectrum without filtration before clock noise starts to become noticeable. The WAD also has a built-in filter, and controlling the cutoff frequency with the WAD's 1v/o CV output can result in longer delays with less high-end rolloff than you'd get with other BBDs. On top of that, the WAD has an invertable feedback input, which can make for other interesting effects.

So no, you don't get the long, bouncy echos you can with the Panasonic MN3005s, but you do get nice bright slapback effects and less noise.

More info here: https://sergemodularinfo.blogspot.com/p ... delay.html

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