Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Any music gear discussions that don't fit into one of the other forums.

Moderators: Joe., lisa, luketeaford, Kent

Post Reply
User avatar
coolshirtdotjpg
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1311
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 4:13 pm
Location: Santa Cruz, California

Re: Behringer System 55

Post by coolshirtdotjpg » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:10 pm

Synthacon wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:07 pm
Any hate for people like Synthwerk, MOS-Lab, COTK, Aion, AJH etc?

Just saying :doh:
No of course not, because they cost more. The point is to look down on poor people, not a rational discussion.
New video for my track
Opening The Portal

User avatar
Red Electric Rainbow
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1448
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:48 am
Location: Chicago

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Red Electric Rainbow » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:11 pm

is the RD-9 shipping yet?
TOO FAR GONE

User avatar
galanter2
Common Wiggler
Posts: 126
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:32 pm
Location: Texas A&M University
Contact:

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by galanter2 » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:31 pm

coolshirtdotjpg wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:03 pm
… Logic cannot be applied to morals ...
I Kant believe you said that! Reason can be Practical!

User avatar
Peake
I'm in ur DIY. Filling cases with Buchla
Posts: 6430
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: Loss Angeles

Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Peake » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:35 pm

coolshirtdotjpg wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:10 pm
Synthacon wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:07 pm
Any hate for people like Synthwerk, MOS-Lab, COTK, Aion, AJH etc?

Just saying :doh:
No of course not, because they cost more. The point is to look down on poor people, not a rational discussion.
MOS-lab and COTK and Moon if I remember correctly only came about after Mike Buckeye and Moog Custom Engineering were out of the scene, long before Moog proper reappeared and began producing the modular.

I'm poor and I detest Behringer. Your concept about this being all about looking down upon poor people is ridiculous.
This is not the place I'd imagined it to be.

synthfanatic
Common Wiggler
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Tokyo, Japan

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by synthfanatic » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:44 pm

I don't have any problems with Behringer making clones; they should be allowed make these clones as long as they are working within the legal bounds of copyright law in the respective countries they are selling their products.

The only problem I have with Behringer is that their products lack class and aren't created with any deep culture or philosophy behind them...
Last edited by synthfanatic on Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:52 pm, edited 5 times in total.

User avatar
galanter2
Common Wiggler
Posts: 126
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:32 pm
Location: Texas A&M University
Contact:

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by galanter2 » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:45 pm

My admiration for Robert Moog and the historical Moog company is as great as anyone's.

But…

Today's Moog Music Inc had *years* to come out with a Eurorack line. The original Doepfer spec came out in 1996! Moog Music returned with products in 2002. Nobody has stolen the chance to do this from them. They gave that chance away.

Instead they put their efforts into things like this. Did anyone here buy one?



I have no personal animosity towards anyone there (or here). But I don't think they have a victim card to play.

Divinital

Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Divinital » Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:01 pm

coolshirtdotjpg wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:10 pm
Synthacon wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:07 pm
Any hate for people like Synthwerk, MOS-Lab, COTK, Aion, AJH etc?

Just saying :doh:
No of course not, because they cost more. The point is to look down on poor people, not a rational discussion.
You don’t know the people you’re talking about, these are just baseless assumptions to fit your agenda. I am not wealthy, I don’t like Behringer. Can’t afford an ARP 2600 reissue, not going to pay a prostitute for a quickie either. Perfectly fine with... wow, surprise, nothing.

KSS
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1205
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:28 am

Re: Korg ARP Legitimacy was Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:03 pm

blw wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:18 pm
Are you aware that Korg purchased the rights to use the ARP brand?
This is a widely held belief which is completely false. How do I know? Because 9 years ago I was going to begin using the ARP Treble Clef logo -which was available through disuse- and after looking into BOTH the legal and ethical aspects decided againt it. Leaving it available for KORG to pick up -much!!- later. I didn't want to be another Donimoog. (As one example of something legal still being ethically bereft.)

What seems not to be understood is that Korg have nothing to stand on legally except the ARP logo, which they have now fully obtained.

That, And the good will they manufactured by running their Odyssey project past David Friend for a rubber stamp. Just like a Kardashian product placement in an instagram photo. At least that was the ODY, which *was* kinda his baby. The 2600 was much less so, and mostly resides on the work of Dennis Colin and Alan Pearlman, both RIP. When I approached Alan for a similar endorsement, he was still upset with the WARP software endosement and did not want any part of any further endorsements. Dennis passed too soon.

The IP of ARP was not purchased by anyone, except the Chroma. All ARPs physical assets were dispersed in a bankruptcy auction. There is no one to "have purchased the rights" from. Except for the ARP Treble Clef logo which was designed by David Friend's wife. Though even that became no longer hers which was why I had considered making it mine.There was a small transfer fee I chose not to pay, which Korg later did. That small fee, and the actual use in the marketplace are what you -and far too many others!- are basing their Korg's rights! arguments upon.

Two points need made. One, this does *NOT* mean Korg has any legal rights over another to use old ARP IP. Only the Clef Logo. Period. Two, this does not mean that having said logo (one stipulation of which it must be used in actual commerce to maintain right to it) does not grant the holder certain non-legal realities. It's best compared to the days when U.S. railroads made sure to get the 160 acre homestead patches with water on them. By having those, they could control vast areas of lanbd around them.

You can see the reality of this by your falsely held belief about what Korg actually "owns" relating to ARPs legacy and IP. And you are far from alone in holding this mistaken and often put forth justification for Korg's ARP 'rights'. They "own" a logo. The rest is in your heads and in the goodwill of their already existing Korg brand.

They now also hold copyright on their own recent work with regard to their ARP projects. This means any Korg created schematics, documentation. Possibly their PCBs, but only if an exact copy were put into the marketplace and they decied to fight it. They have no claim on original ARP PCBs and other copyrights.

One final point. If there actually were someone interested in prosecuting Korg, their use of old ARP photos, documents and text -as seen all over the walls at their NAMM 2020 booth- would be fair game. Those are copyright, and that is not something which disappears. We all just tend to ignore it.

Disclaimer: I have shared the truth to the best of my current knowledge.
If *anyone* can provide proof of what KORG actually bought in the way of ARP IP from a legal prior holder, I'm all ears and will publish it here.

Divinital

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Divinital » Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:15 pm

Who cares about Korg? Korg also distributes for Waldorf in the US as well as takes care of servicing and repairs but it’s not Korg. Probably a similar partnership than any sort of owning or cloning or boning or...

Korg’s name is not in the Odyssey or 2600 reissue.

“Now in 2015, KORG has brought back the ARP Odyssey for today. With the advisory assistance of David Friend, the co-founder of ARP Instruments, KORG has completely reproduced the original circuitry for artists looking to recreate classic sounds and explore new ones. Together the engineers at KORG and Arp were able to nail the sound and feel of the original. Every detail has been carefully considered to stay true to the quality of the original, down to the sophisticated semi-hard case. ”

From Korg’s website. Korg’s website also has links directly to ARP’s website.

What’s your point here?

All of what you said leaves it that ARP is legitimate again and already being pillaged.

User avatar
galanter2
Common Wiggler
Posts: 126
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:32 pm
Location: Texas A&M University
Contact:

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by galanter2 » Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:29 pm

As far as I can tell KSS is exactly right on this but there is background that I suspect he knows but left unstated. So in the public interest :) ...

People talk about "IP" as if it's one thing, but there are at least 4 categories: patents, copyright, trademark, and trade secrets. Each covers different kinds of things, each has it own implied rights, legal methods to establish, time of coverage, etc. E.g. the circuit design would fall under patents (and I don't know that any ARP circuits were patentable or patented), the printed circuit board *might* be coverable by copyright, the clef logo is covered by trademark, etc.

So far as I can tell anyone is free to use the original circuit design however they see fit. But if you stencil the clef logo on it…you might be in trouble!

User avatar
blw
Common Wiggler
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:30 pm

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by blw » Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:35 pm

Divinital wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:15 pm
All of what you said leaves it that ARP is legitimate again and already being pillaged.
I don’t think that is a very nuanced read of what he said at all.

Divinital

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Divinital » Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:38 pm

blw wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:35 pm
Divinital wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:15 pm
All of what you said leaves it that ARP is legitimate again and already being pillaged.
I don’t think that is a very nuanced read of what he said at all.
You’re not providing one either.

Korg doesn’t own anything of substance related to ARP. That’s all that boils down to, a single sentence. Therefore Korg made ARP an entity “unrelated“ to them, hence the lack of Korg’s name in their products.

Let’s get Uli to prosecute Korg, I’m so down. All we need to do is link that post to GearSlutz and GChan will take care of it.

KSS
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1205
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:28 am

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:58 pm

galanter2 wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:29 pm
E.g. the circuit design would fall under patents (and I don't know that any ARP circuits were patentable or patented)
http://till.com/articles/arp/patents.html (of course all well expired and free for anyone to use)

KSS
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1205
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:28 am

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:19 pm

Divinital wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:15 pm
Korg’s name is not in the Odyssey or 2600 reissue.
Look inside. It's on the PCBs. Along with typical Korg P/Ns, easily understood by any competent tech to be of Korg origin.
And also on the documentation. See the last page of the 2600FS OM for Korg's copyright as an example. Available on Korg's website.
What’s your point here?
That a large number of people think that Korg has legal and ethical rights beyond what is actual truth, and that they -those people- use this false belief to try to place Korg above or before others who might offer products based on old ARP inc. IP. That somehow Korg has "rights" they've bought and that gives them legitimacy. Given the thread this is placed in; it is pertinent.
All of what you said leaves it that ARP is legitimate again and already being pillaged.
The first part, yes. They are legitimate as the ARP brand of Korg. But the second half of your statement is the kind of falsity my prior post aims to expose. There is no "pillaging" of Korg's ARP entity, as long as the treble clef, and any new Korg created IP is not used. That referenced owners manual, for example. That's now protected under copyright to Korg.

Funch

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Funch » Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:37 pm

SyndieBot2000XL wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:30 am
Divinital wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:17 pm
Only a select few will understand what you’re saying, let alone care.

“It is like the finger pointing to the moon…”
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I actually mostly agree with this user’s (Funch) points - my problem has been with the methods he uses to make them. He consistently hides behind his message to lob sanctimonious twaddle, and then cries about abuse when people respond to him in kind. Abusing anyone and everyone that ventures into the Berhinger threads looking for information - this is ok because you don’t like Behringer? And you guys are positing yourselves as morally justified because... you want to protest global capitalism? Again, I’m sympathetic to that impulse, but there are rules to this forum, and they are in place for a good reason. You want to stick up for someone that has been flagrantly violating that rule to stir shit up for weeks and weeks? Fine, but don’t confuse the messenger with the message. I see the moon just fine, thank you; it’s having a finger *constantly* in my face that’s getting me testy.
@Divinital. Yea, Its sad but all to true, all the while the planet's starting to burn.

@SyndieBot2000XL. Kind of a Straw Man argument there.

Don't think I'm crying about abuse and defiantly not trying to abuse anyone. My point is to be civil when presenting any POV.

No need to attack the messenger, the messenger doesn't care if you buy Behringer products, that's your choice.

However if a member can't tolerate other people's opinions who don't agree with you, and feel the need to use bullying tactics to make a point, then yes the music tribe forum might make a good comfortable home forum.

There are corporations and companies in the "global capitalist" system worth supporting, so not protesting that ideal either. Only trying to support righteous companies.

Hard to do exclusively I know. But just because we can't, doesn't mean we can't try by supporting those companies who are trying to make the place better.

And because it's hard to exclusively support righteous companies, I'm not going to use that as a justification to support Behringer. That's a slippery slope.

We certainly do see the world through our own bias and develop our reasoning to support that bias.

Once you understand that, you start seeing the streaming code in front of you and understand its just opinions, so no need to get upset or angry over it.

Is that what you mean by "sanctimonious twaddle"?
Last edited by Funch on Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Divinital

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Divinital » Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:46 pm

I for one welcome the pyrocene era. It will be exciting for everyone, a solid drama to watch no matter who you are, none left out! An abrupt ending.

Funch

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Funch » Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:02 am

Divinital wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:46 pm
I for one welcome the pyrocene era. It will be exciting for everyone, a solid drama to watch no matter who you are, none left out! An abrupt ending.
I especially feel sad for the innocent animals that are drawn into our drama. An estimated 480 million animals died in Australia because of fire this year.


User avatar
justin3am
Let's go do some crimes
Posts: 1510
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:26 pm
Location: Southern California

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by justin3am » Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:34 am

I choose not to buy Behringer. Except for this occasion, I usually do not comment on Music Tribe brands or products, because my choice is due to personal preference and anecdotal experience. Totally subjective.

I do feel like Behringer makes it more difficult for smaller operations to sell their products... but not because their products make competitors products less attractive to people who would buy those products. I think that Behringer exerts an outsized influence on the dealers and distributors who carry their products. Like, I imagine that the demand from end-users, for Soma's Lyra-8 would not go down, if Behringer started making one. However, I think it would be more difficult for dealers and distributors to justify carrying two of (as far as they are concerned) the same product, with such a large price disparity. Even if the margins aren't as great, the fact that they could potentially move more unit's makes the Behringer product a more attractive proposition for a lot of the bigger dealers. From what I understand, there are also perks to doing business with a few companies that have a wide variety of products, rather than a bunch of smaller companies.

That said, this does result in other companies getting more clever. I'm not saying they are happy about it and I'm not saying that they wouldn't be clever if Behringer weren't around. However, I do think there are things that a smaller company can do better than Behringer. And I also think there are a lot of folks who aren't considering Behringer products, even if they can't afford a Moog System 55 or a Karp 2600. Luckily there are currently enough options at different price levels to make synths-nerds of all kinds happy.
"Thank god for the drugs and drums." El-P
3amNoise | Synth Videos

User avatar
oldenjon
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 684
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:28 am
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by oldenjon » Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:47 am

toxoplasma_gondii wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:02 am
The logical solution to this issue would be to develop VCV Rack (or a similar app) for VR/AR HMDs. The Oculus Quest already has hand-tracking, and once haptic gloves become more commonplace and affordable, I believe the physicality issue will largely be surmounted. Even if it does not perfectly replicate the experience of a physical Eurorack system, the benefits of software (lower price, patch-saving, reduced space requirements, unlimited module selection, not having to deal with hardware issues) would more than make up for it for the average user.
:russian:
"68% of all statistics are made up on the spot"

http://synthscalledbeasts.tumblr.com/

User avatar
doombient.music
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1141
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 5:23 pm
Location: the city that doesn't exist, germany
Contact:

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by doombient.music » Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:28 am

Casually browsing through this thread. There is an easy answer to all the questions raised -- if you don't like it, don't buy it. No-one forces you to, and you still have the freedom of choice not to support anything you find morally or ethically questionable.

If you trade freedom of choice in for a cheapo synth… well...

Stephen

galaxie
Common Wiggler
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:36 pm

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by galaxie » Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:49 am

Cheap clones from Boog might push the gear industry for more innovation. Synth should be more powerful, flexible, and modulable.
Now the cpu power of Ipad is as good as a Pc. Mobile devices now have delicate and refined touch-screen with wireless connections. Why the synth industry does not advance more on this front? Some companies keep re-issue old stuffs and no wonder Behringer comes in for a big chunk bite.

User avatar
naturligfunktion
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 450
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:07 am
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by naturligfunktion » Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:07 am

Divinital wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:27 am
naturligfunktion wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:22 am
.
It broke
This is pretty vague. What happened? Moog couldn’t fix the broke?
They did offer to help actually, so maybe I did a cheap shot at moog (sorry!)

It was a pot issue. The filter is broken basically. Apparently it was a common problem with the sub phatty.

User avatar
lud
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1081
Joined: Tue May 05, 2015 2:02 pm
Location: UK

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by lud » Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:04 am

There are 14 dedicated behringer threads on the first page of the general gear forum alone! They seem to be announcing a new product in a horrible cheap promo video every day. Surely they'll run out of things to "clone"? How many of these products are available? They've gotta run out of steam sometime and the demand will fall when their own market is completely oversaturated and their fans run out of money and desk space.

User avatar
oscilloscope
Common Wiggler
Posts: 142
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2015 7:42 am
Location: Paris, France

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by oscilloscope » Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:19 am

I am going to keep it civil (at least try) :party:

Basically if I was Behringer and somebody would bring up such issues as practices, ethics, morals, etc. for my company, this would be my response:

Image

Divinital

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Divinital » Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:42 am

I also found it hilarious that behringer tries to appear even cheaper by having distributors sell their products at a price that ends in an $8, such as $98 vs $99. Yes of course it’s technically cheaper, but it’s 99% mind games, I mean, 98% mind games.

Post Reply

Return to “General Gear”