Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by EPTC » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:40 pm

2disbetter wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:18 pm
Behringer isn't the Robin Hood of synthesizers. I think they capitalize on how entitled and selfish they are.
Edited that for you.
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by oldenjon » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:50 pm

2disbetter wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:18 pm
Care to contribute anything else to the discussion?

Behringer isn't the Robin Hood of synthesizers. I think they capitalize on how entitled and selfish people are. You see people see value only based on what something costs. If something took someone 100 hours to make but only sells for $2 that time spent making it means nothing more than $2 to these people.

You see, like I said, Behringer is not evil. However, they could just make their own products, and not blatantly copy other designs and this conversation would be very different.

The Craze, for example, is a pretty cool synth.
A better analogy is an industry tycoon hires a watchmaker to reproduce a Rolex using a mechanical drawing, cutting every possible corner in the manufacturing process (cheapest materials etc.), using their resources and economies of scale to undercut competitors and reap maximum profit. I would dive further into the ethics but then Korg does 1:1 clones of Arp (at least they did it first). I just don't know why Behringer can't stay on their side of fence.
Last edited by oldenjon on Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by joem » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:54 pm

(Ignoring the entire argument about the morality of Behringer...)

I can't help but think that these modules have pretty horrible user interfaces! The placement, distribution, and labeling of all the elements (knobs, jacks, buttons, switches, etc) just seems kind of arbitrary and not well thought out. Some modules seem so crammed full of everything while others have IMO far too much space for what they do. There are so many manual elements (knobs, buttons, switches) right next to, in between, or completely surrounded by jacks, I feel like these modules would be about as ergonomic to use as a system full of 2hp modules. And that font they used for the labels is far from the most readable.

I know that it's mimicking the original, but so what? A lot of the original modules they're mimicking had a lot more space since they were larger than eurorack. So they had to move things around anyway... Why not move things around in a more usable way? And why not find a font that feels similar but reads better? As it is, these modules do not look like they'd be fun/enjoyable to use.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by blw » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:18 pm

oldenjon wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:50 pm
I would dive further into the ethics but then Korg does 1:1 clones of Arp (at least they did it first). I just don't know why Behringer can't stay on their side of fence.
Are you aware that Korg purchased the rights to use the ARP brand?

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KittenVillage » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:31 pm

rayultine wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:06 pm
Just think how cheap these things will be used when entry point modular synthesists realize they are monofunctional relics
Well my personal solution to the Gordian knot that is Behringer's ethics is to only buy them second hand. You can only vote with your wallet, and I will not support them directly. But yes, I too suspect that 2 years on there will a lot of these things out there going cheaply for a variety of reasons.

I also suspect there will be a small aftermarket of third party alternate panels, especially for the System 100 modules.


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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by sanders » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:35 pm

Peake wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:37 pm
If Behringer were creating their own designs from scratch it would be welcome. Not this. What if Moog Music wanted to delve into Eurack? Now it'd be a problem. Behringer has limited Moog's possible expansion, and their right to produce their own circuits in that format.

Moog Music is the company that owns the rights to the name of the company that made the System 55. The System 55 is public domain, I should think.

All due respect to Moog (the current company), I know they’re employee owned which is tremendous, and they seem very honorable is many ways (it goes w/o saying around here).

But for 20 years or more, it’s seemed pretty gonzo obvious that companies like Moog should be offering their 70s classics using modern assembly/design/surface mount/etc to drastically reduce cost. I’ve heard people ask for this over and over and over. Other people would poo-poo it: “it can’t be done”, “it wouldn’t be cheaper, it’d be more expensive”, “only 10 people would want it”, etc. and so on and so forth.

Moog, the current company, could have (and maybe should have) done this themselves years ago, and maybe then everyone would be using Moog Modular now instead of Make Noise, Doepfer, whatever. It’s not their thing, they sell beautiful, modern, midi-equipped high-end studio keyboard synthesizers.

I think it took someone like Uli with a passion for vintage electronic instruments to do what Behringer is now doing. I don’t know a thing about the guy, but he obviously reveres the same instruments I do.

What Moog ought to do now is license their name to Behringer for these reissue instruments. Then everybody wins

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Zymos » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:53 pm

oldenjon wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:50 pm
I would dive further into the ethics but then Korg does 1:1 clones of Arp (at least they did it first). I just don't know why Behringer can't stay on their side of fence.
Korg worked with David Friend, one of the founders of ARP, on these. Behringer simply copies stuff on their own. That says it all about the difference between the 2 companies.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Funch » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:55 pm

starthief wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:03 pm
Some people buy Rolex watches. Others buy Casio watches. They both tell time.

The Rolex buyer knows why they're paying so much, and that this isn't just "what watches should cost".
The Casio buyer knows why they're paying so little, and they're okay with this.

Rolex probably never lost a sale to Casio.

(Kind of an old metaphor since most people probably just use their cellphones to tell time now, but still valid)
wait, is Casio is making Rolex clones in China?

Apples and Oranges.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by oldenjon » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:08 pm

blw wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:18 pm
oldenjon wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:50 pm
I would dive further into the ethics but then Korg does 1:1 clones of Arp (at least they did it first). I just don't know why Behringer can't stay on their side of fence.
Are you aware that Korg purchased the rights to use the ARP brand?
I was curious, but my point is that clones are unavoidable. I don't disagree with what Behringer is doing, I disagree with how Behringer is doing what they're doing.
sanders wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:35 pm
Peake wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:37 pm
If Behringer were creating their own designs from scratch it would be welcome. Not this. What if Moog Music wanted to delve into Eurack? Now it'd be a problem. Behringer has limited Moog's possible expansion, and their right to produce their own circuits in that format.
All due respect to Moog (the current company), I know they’re employee owned which is tremendous, and they seem very honorable is many ways (it goes w/o saying around here)....

Moog, the current company, could have (and maybe should have) done this themselves years ago, and maybe then everyone would be using Moog Modular now instead of Make Noise, Doepfer, whatever. It’s not their thing, they sell beautiful, modern, midi-equipped high-end studio keyboard synthesizers....

What Moog ought to do now is license their name to Behringer for these reissue instruments. Then everybody wins
I thought Moog reissued one of the modular systems? The problem is that there isn't a market for Moog to reissue the modular systems on a mass scale. They would have to move manufacturing to China. Moog is not that kind of company, so why would they license their name to that kind of company?
Last edited by oldenjon on Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Funch » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:14 pm

oldenjon wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:08 pm
blw wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:18 pm
oldenjon wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:50 pm
I would dive further into the ethics but then Korg does 1:1 clones of Arp (at least they did it first). I just don't know why Behringer can't stay on their side of fence.
Are you aware that Korg purchased the rights to use the ARP brand?
I was curious, but my point is that clones are unavoidable. I don't disagree with what Behringer is doing, I disagree with how Behringer is doing what they're doing.
sanders wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:35 pm
Peake wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:37 pm
If Behringer were creating their own designs from scratch it would be welcome. Not this. What if Moog Music wanted to delve into Eurack? Now it'd be a problem. Behringer has limited Moog's possible expansion, and their right to produce their own circuits in that format.
All due respect to Moog (the current company), I know they’re employee owned which is tremendous, and they seem very honorable is many ways (it goes w/o saying around here)....

Moog, the current company, could have (and maybe should have) done this themselves years ago, and maybe then everyone would be using Moog Modular now instead of Make Noise, Doepfer, whatever. It’s not their thing, they sell beautiful, modern, midi-equipped high-end studio keyboard synthesizers....

What Moog ought to do now is license their name to Behringer for these reissue instruments. Then everybody wins
I thought Moog reissued one of the modular systems? The problem is that there isn't a market for Moog to reissue the modular systems on a mass scale. They would have to move manufacturing to China. Moog is not that kind of company, so why would they license their name to that kind of company?
moog has circuit boards built in China.

"Roughly half of the circuit boards and associated components for Moog's instruments come from China. ... However, whether they buy circuit boards in the US or overseas, the majority of the raw components still come from China. Therefore, Moog will be unable to avoid this substantial cost increase because of the tariffs."


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Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by Arneb » Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:30 am

The ethics, morals and legitimacy of Behringer threads and their moderators go into another subforum.

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Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by Kattefjaes » Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:55 am

UltraViolet wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:27 pm
Although most of what Big B is selling is clones of older gear, the Neutron is a legitimately new product. Yes, it copies little bits and such here and there, but pretty much all others do that as well. If anyone else had created it it would likely be praised and not bashed along with everything else from Big B.
I dunno, having spent time with one, I feel more or less the exact opposite. While the basic design is intriguing, it's a pretty horrible machine. The firmware is glitchy, the LFO leaks out at zero modulation, the BBD leaks at zero unless you patch around it, the filter sounds way too hot as normalled unless you patch one of the attenuators in first. It's a hot mess. People make excuses and go "ooh it's analogue charm"- but it really looks like the result of production engineering an initially usable design down mercilessly to reduce the BoM. Pretty much every stage of the signal chain seems to add more noise than you'd expect, and it's all pretty ramshackle. I don't mind snarling and intentionally dirty, but broken is tiring.

I plopped it down side by side with a Dreadbox Erebus V3, another small paraphonic desktop analogue, the contrast was stark. The Erebus could do screaming and self-oscillation, but it could also do gorgeous washes of smooth lovely sound. It's a simpler, less cluttered machine that actually works. Had Dreadbox put out the Neutron, I think they would have been pilloried- even if they'd managed to get the price down to near-Behringer levels (they couldn't, their stuff is made in Europe, but is priced surprisingly fairly for the quality).

I wanted to like the Neutron, precisely because they'd put out a non-clone. I wanted to give it a fair chance. Honestly, it felt like a very unwise Aliexpress purchase (even down to the wrong PSU in the box).

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Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by thingware » Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:05 am

blw wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:54 pm
Framed in that context, my question is does it bother Behringer fans that they may not be able to ever meet the builder of their Behringer instrument because he or she may in fact be a forced or low wage laborer who rarely if ever leaves the factory? F
This is true for every manufacturer. You should never be able to meet the assembly personnel, regardless of what country they are in.

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Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by thingware » Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:12 am

luchog wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:47 pm
Yes, there are a lot of clones of popular circuits out there -- a myriad of 4-pole transistor ladder filters, 808-style kick drums, Buchla-style LPGs, and so on -- that don't properly credit or reward the innovators; but there're also a lot of really clever updates on classic circuits, and even entirely new stuff that never existed before.
I don't understand how people get away with this. Presumably the original schematics are copyrighted. Even with changes, this still requires copying major portions of the schematics.

Especially when you get to the point to copying the whole thing, like the Odyssey. How is that not infringing?

Also, I'm not talking about patents here. In fact, by design the expired patents are the one part of this you can copy.

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Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by ranix » Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:46 am

posting in a shitty thread

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Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by Divinital » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:40 am

I like MIDIfans’s website. It’s my favorite; I read it before bed for a good night’s dream.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by peripatitis » Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:26 pm

Chopper wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:04 am
bemushroomed wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:39 am
ObsoleteModular wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:31 am
I like both of them. You don't have to innovate to do well financially. Uli is no Bob Moog, but I suppose few are.
No he's not, he's a businessman first and foremost i believe, but he's also a synth nerd so he understands the market and demand.
Well, he is a musician from a musician family first and formost, and was building gear for cheap for other students while studying (and playing piano in hotels to pay for the whole studying), so hey. But yeah, that gave him a clear insight on what people want....
Sad violin playing on the backgound...
This is the kind of bull Behringer brings along the immorality of copying other people's work.
But do we really need to continue with this kind of ridiculous PR?
Should every manufacturer in euro sell as his personal story?
A poor student, a clochard with a dream saved by his love for synths, a heroin addict having his way with a circuit board...
At least with MacDonalds we don't need to be on first name basis...

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by bemushroomed » Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:44 pm

peripatitis wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:26 pm

Sad violin playing on the backgound...
This is the kind of bull Behringer brings along the immorality of copying other people's work.
They only bull is this.

So you're telling me you've never owned a clone/copy of anything in e.g eurorack? You've never appreciated manufacturers like Doepfer, Studio Electronics or AJH synths, AMSynths and hundreds of other manufacturers copying work?

Personally i'm excited that he's working with AMsynths, their modules always seemed to disappear within minutes after a batch came out. I'm not sure if its AMsynths who reached out or if its the other way around, if they did then it means they have really good insight (better than most) into the euro market.

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Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by SyndieBot2000XL » Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:59 pm

thingware wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:12 am
luchog wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:47 pm
Yes, there are a lot of clones of popular circuits out there -- a myriad of 4-pole transistor ladder filters, 808-style kick drums, Buchla-style LPGs, and so on -- that don't properly credit or reward the innovators; but there're also a lot of really clever updates on classic circuits, and even entirely new stuff that never existed before.
I don't understand how people get away with this. Presumably the original schematics are copyrighted. Even with changes, this still requires copying major portions of the schematics.

Especially when you get to the point to copying the whole thing, like the Odyssey. How is that not infringing?

Also, I'm not talking about patents here. In fact, by design the expired patents are the one part of this you can copy.
My understanding is that you can copyright the *image* of a schematic as an artistic work, but you patent the actual design of the circuit - and Disney hasn’t had a team of lawyers chipping away at patent law the way they have with copyright for the last thirty odd years. So while copyright more and more is forever, patents only last for twenty years and then the design is free to roam the public domain.
It began as a mistake.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by thispoison » Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:37 pm

PLEASE move all this shite to the thread none of them care to use.
Where have I seen you before?
Same place you saw me, I expect.
I've got a good face for memories.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by thispoison » Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:43 pm

My shite included - we all get dragged in.
Where have I seen you before?
Same place you saw me, I expect.
I've got a good face for memories.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by EPTC » Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:47 pm

How about just calling them the Starbucks of synthesizers.
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Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by luchog » Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:49 pm

thingware wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:12 am
luchog wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:47 pm
Yes, there are a lot of clones of popular circuits out there -- a myriad of 4-pole transistor ladder filters, 808-style kick drums, Buchla-style LPGs, and so on -- that don't properly credit or reward the innovators; but there're also a lot of really clever updates on classic circuits, and even entirely new stuff that never existed before.
I don't understand how people get away with this. Presumably the original schematics are copyrighted. Even with changes, this still requires copying major portions of the schematics.

Especially when you get to the point to copying the whole thing, like the Odyssey. How is that not infringing?

Also, I'm not talking about patents here. In fact, by design the expired patents are the one part of this you can copy.
Defending copyrights and patents is an expensive and time-consuming process, that not everyone has the wherewithal to do. And in a lot of these cases, the original designers are either out of business, or no longer sell products based on those circuits, and so have no financial motivation to pursue legal action against violators.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by peripatitis » Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:26 pm

bemushroomed wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:44 pm
peripatitis wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:26 pm

Sad violin playing on the backgound...
This is the kind of bull Behringer brings along the immorality of copying other people's work.
They only bull is this.

So you're telling me you've never owned a clone/copy of anything in e.g eurorack? You've never appreciated manufacturers like Doepfer, Studio Electronics or AJH synths, AMSynths and hundreds of other manufacturers copying work?

Personally i'm excited that he's working with AMsynths, their modules always seemed to disappear within minutes after a batch came out. I'm not sure if its AMsynths who reached out or if its the other way around, if they did then it means they have really good insight (better than most) into the euro market.
you obviously have not read my posts,
a) it is not about modular, it is not about now. It is about a decades long behavior copying and stealing others peoples work and making an empire out of it.
b) none of the other euro manufacturers have pushed that much PR crap in our face within so little time.

And if all of this doesn't matter to you, think about the following
Uli, sorry I meant Behringer is actively trying to steal the name of a living synth legend, Oberheim. How's that about Uli's love and passion about synths, sorry I meant Behringer's love and passion about synths??? If this is not an indication of what they are about, I don't know what is...

Divinital

Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Divinital » Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:30 pm

peripatitis wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:26 pm
bemushroomed wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:44 pm
peripatitis wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:26 pm

Sad violin playing on the backgound...
This is the kind of bull Behringer brings along the immorality of copying other people's work.
They only bull is this.

So you're telling me you've never owned a clone/copy of anything in e.g eurorack? You've never appreciated manufacturers like Doepfer, Studio Electronics or AJH synths, AMSynths and hundreds of other manufacturers copying work?

Personally i'm excited that he's working with AMsynths, their modules always seemed to disappear within minutes after a batch came out. I'm not sure if its AMsynths who reached out or if its the other way around, if they did then it means they have really good insight (better than most) into the euro market.
you obviously have not read my posts,
a) it is not about modular, it is not about now. It is about a decades long behavior copying and stealing others peoples work and making an empire out of it.
b) none of the other euro manufacturers have pushed that much PR crap in our face within so little time.

And if all of this doesn't matter to you, think about the following
Uli, sorry I meant Behringer is actively trying to steal the name of a living synth legend, Oberheim. How's that about Uli's love and passion about synths, sorry I meant Behringer's love and passion about synths??? If this is not an indication of what they are about, I don't know what is...
let go. it's the only way Behringer can't win. the problems that arise are in your own head. i don't support behringer and never will but once they control your emotions and focus, that's the only time they win. microcosm to the macrocosm, if you don't like behringer like some of the resistance squad here, don't buy their shit and stick to instruments with soul in them. put this energy into your music and don't let the existence of shit upset you.

Moog === a 5 star restaurant; Behringer === the shit you take after digestion and flush down the toilet due to the enjoyment of the first.

the key here is both are necessary. no nourishment without poop, no poop without nourishment.

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