Series of Tubes

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guigui
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Series of Tubes

Post by guigui » Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:54 am

I'm looking for some good tube modules to add some saturation and I'd like to know which ones to you recommend. Erica Synths, Klangbau, L-1, Bizarre Jezabel (mimosa, I'm specially interested in this one)? I'm not interested only on VCAs.

I'd say metasonix and troggotronic are almost ruled out due to high power consumption.

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Re: Series of Tubes

Post by lisa » Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:49 am

The Metasonix RK6 only uses 100 mA (200 at startup) and seems to be a very cool resonant lowpass filter.
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Re: Series of Tubes

Post by Funky40 » Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:21 am

The ones i patched do sound all different.
everybody who would want to tell you that this or this is just the best one has missed something in my opinion.
Dependent on the Audio material you feed might one module shine over the other and vice versa.
Thats how it is........at least that was my experience in the last weeks, since i have a few tube modules now. plus the nu-tube one from plankton plus the plasma drive from Erica. Both not exactly real tubes, but brothers ;)

check the Klangbau Tube VCA Demo on YT. sounds great ( seems to be the Ken Stone circuitry (?). my CGS Tube VCA never soundet this way )
i think this would make for a nice entry, no ?



i definitly do lust now for that module.
but need to test my tubys by patching sinewaves thru it. not donne so far


personally i find that the tube modules, at least the ones i saw, do go quite rapidly into brachial overdrive rather than just adding some saturation.
for the latter is the plankton nutone definitly a interesting contender.
The tube modules i patched were quite fiddly to dial them in to act more in the "inbetween" range of sounds.
But it depends *alots* on the sounds you feed, and the dynamic changes these sounds have.

to me it seems that patching with tube modules is again an art in itself.
Its not donne by just buying "That" Module......and your set.
its more like: get one and see where "you" end up with it and what "you" would get out, and where it fits within your system.
my opinion
For sale / reduced prices ( swiss (we are NON-EU)/ in case it makes sense_ EU/WW)(CHF +- = $):
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Re: Series of Tubes

Post by guigui » Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:24 am

Funky40 wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:21 am
The ones i patched do sound all different.
everybody who would want to tell you that this or this is just the best one has missed something in my opinion.
Dependent on the Audio material you feed might one module shine over the other and vice versa.
Thats how it is........at least that was my experience in the last weeks, since i have a few tube modules now. plus the nu-tube one from plankton plus the plasma drive from Erica. Both not exactly real tubes, but brothers ;)

check the Klangbau Tube VCA Demo on YT. sounds great ( seems to be the Ken Stone circuitry (?). my CGS Tube VCA never soundet this way )
i think this would make for a nice entry, no ?



i definitly do lust now for that module.
but need to test my tubys by patching sinewaves thru it. not donne so far


personally i find that the tube modules, at least the ones i saw, do go quite rapidly into brachial overdrive rather than just adding some saturation.
for the latter is the plankton nutone definitly a interesting contender.
The tube modules i patched were quite fiddly to dial them in to act more in the "inbetween" range of sounds.
But it depends *alots* on the sounds you feed, and the dynamic changes these sounds have.

to me it seems that patching with tube modules is again an art in itself.
Its not donne by just buying "That" Module......and your set.
its more like: get one and see where "you" end up with it and what "you" would get out, and where it fits within your system.
my opinion
Thanks a lot for the advises.

I'm almost pulling the trigger on the Plasma Drive mas that would be for more harsh saturation. I'd like to have something that I could go from subbtle to heavy. I saw some people using Fusion Mixer v3 to do that but it's not ideal.

How do you like the nutone?

I'm very interested in the Klangbau as in the L-1 modules, that seem pretty similar to each other.

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Re: Series of Tubes

Post by foliephonics » Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:32 am

I have no experience with modules with tubes (I'd rather stay away from them because I question their longevity from experience with guitar tube amps), but there's also the Strakal Orsel by TouellSkouarn which sounds good.

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Re: Series of Tubes

Post by synthcube » Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:08 am

we are partial to the L-1 modules-- Aleksei does some amazing stuff
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Re: Series of Tubes

Post by Yes Powder » Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:14 am

foliephonics wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:32 am
I question their longevity from experience with guitar tube amps.
Don't. Guitar amps tend to push the tubes in them very hard- sometimes even outside of their recommended operating range, as well as subject them to a lot of intense vibration. Tubes in modules don't do any of that, and therefore have much longer lifespans than any tube you put in a guitar amp. Even if something does happen, the tubes they use (in Metasonix's case anyway) are dirt-cheap.

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Re: Series of Tubes

Post by Funky40 » Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:59 pm

guigui wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:24 am
How do you like the nutone?
I like it. it will stay in my rack.

The Nu-Tube has its own behaviour. not shure how much this could differ based on different circuitry around the nu-tube ?
lets say if several people would build a module/VCA based on it.
Its definitly different than my real-Tube modules.
a little dependend on the input material has it a wider range how you can dial in Sounds inbetween "no distortion" and "alots".
on some sounds the range is also VERY small and it would also become fiddly to dial in something in between clean and full wet.

The module layout as such is in my opinion VERY good !
clever donne ! it fully supports how we patch in euro-land.
in that sense is it a nice functionality vs. HP.
I can also recommend the Envelope follower. Just 2hp ! its doing its job. ( i have a detect-rx as a comparison)
very handy.





foliephonics wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:32 am
there's also the Strakal Orsel by TouellSkouarn which sounds good.
yes, i built one some weeks ago. Like it.
luckily my test jamms were just with the right sources of sound :hihi:

later on, i had jamms where the Orsel was just not working for me. Same also with the nutone.

The Plasma drive is a though one. There have been VERY good demos here on muffs. ( guess from "nolegs"....? )
I can tell you that i´ve never reached into that territory of musicality so far.
Plasma Drive should still be on sale at perfect circuit ( in CA/US) ;)


personally i would not be too enthusiastic on Tubes and would take people who are, like.......lets say: a salt of Grain.
These Tubes can be supergreat, ....for some specific types of input signals......and for some specific types of sound they spit out.
If somebody IS into this: then well, go ahead and fill your rack with tubes as some do with filters.
But its not your next "make everything better and more fun" module.

well, the nutone is quite predictable and linear when used on kicks. its definitly supergreat on kicks imho.
thats a save bet i´d say. not shure how much tastes on kicks differ ? i personally want to have a as smooth as possible fade from dry to wet to find my desired sweetspot......not liking gabber/trask kicks,......since thats indeed for the trashcan.(IMHO)
you can go there probably with any mixer patching feebacks. it takes circuitry worth 1-3$ to trashcan your kicks..........its no art ! / rant :lol:
For sale / reduced prices ( swiss (we are NON-EU)/ in case it makes sense_ EU/WW)(CHF +- = $):
lowered prices: Dotcom Q960: 650.- / Q119: 420 / ( i also have one or much likely two 19" Frames)
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Re: Series of Tubes

Post by luchog » Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:38 pm

guigui wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:54 am
I'd say metasonix and troggotronic are almost ruled out due to high power consumption.

High power consumption is just how tubes work. They need power because of how they're designed. If tubes aren't consuming more power than solid state, then you're doing it wrong, not using the tube properly, so you might as well just be using solid state at that point.

That said, the majority of the power use is the cold-inrush spike just after they're turned on. That's what most of your power overhead is needed for. Once past that they're still using more than an equivalent solid state circuit, but not massive amounts more.

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Re: Series of Tubes

Post by bitflip » Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:02 pm

I just came in here because the name of the thread corresponds to my location :driving:

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Re: Series of Tubes

Post by adaris » Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:12 pm

luchog wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:38 pm
guigui wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:54 am
I'd say metasonix and troggotronic are almost ruled out due to high power consumption.

High power consumption is just how tubes work. They need power because of how they're designed. If tubes aren't consuming more power than solid state, then you're doing it wrong, not using the tube properly, so you might as well just be using solid state at that point.

That said, the majority of the power use is the cold-inrush spike just after they're turned on. That's what most of your power overhead is needed for. Once past that they're still using more than an equivalent solid state circuit, but not massive amounts more.
I'm no designer but there is definitely significant variation in power consumption among tube modules. The Metasonix RK3 for example uses 400mA from the +12V rail, and 800-1000mA on cold startup due to the inrush spike. On the other hand I recently got a Sognage Cephalopod, and according to Sognage it uses 39 mA at +12V and 146mA at -12V, with little or no inrush spike on cold startup. That's still more overall than many modules but also significantly lower than most Metasonix or Trogotronic. Anecdotally I can tell you that the Cephalopod tube doesn't get nearly as hot as the tubes on most of my Metasonix modules. The module is not without its flaws, but I certainly wouldn't say that Sognage is doing it "wrong" based on my experience with it so far, and if current consumption is a concern or even if it isn't, the Cephalopod is worth a look IMO.

The OP mentioned Bizarre Jezabel, but I would just point out that their modules typically also use a lot of current, I believe somebody on Muffs actually measured the consumption of at least one of their modules and posted it, I'm sure you can find the thread if you look.

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Re: Series of Tubes

Post by luchog » Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:46 pm

adaris wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:12 pm
On the other hand I recently got a Sognage Cephalopod, and according to Sognage it uses 39 mA at +12V and 146mA at -12V, with little or no inrush spike on cold startup.
Looking at this, this isn't really a tube circuit. It's just a weak, under-powered tube preamp on top of an ordinary solid-state filter and compressor; and exists solely to add a tiny bit of tube "colour". Like Erica's Fusion stuff, it's pretty much just a bog-standard solid state circuit with a tube tacked on to add a bit of hype and waveshaping. It would take at least three or four tubes to peform all those functions in a single module if it was all tube-based circuits.

The only way you're getting a real tube circuit at those current levels is if you're using the tiny, "pencil tubes" designed for battery-operated radios and hearing aids. And those really aren't going to give you the gain and power handling needed to really be effective at the voltage and current levels used in most synth formats. Not unless you're running them very hot.

Metasonix's stuff (and Zerosum's if you're looking at 5U) are using tubes as the core of the circuit, not as add-ons (don't know about Trogo, haven't really looked at their circuits). And it's important to keep in mind that even then, Metasonix (and Zerosum) are running their tubes about 20% underpowered, which extends tube life considerably, with only a small loss of performance. That's why you see guitarists and audiophiles spending fifty to a hundred bucks replacing their 12As and 6L6s and ECC8s evey year or two; they're burning out their tubes (even if they're still functional, performance drops rapidly as they age under those conditions). I've rarely had the tubes in my Metasonix gear ever get too hot to touch comfortably, certainly nowhere hear as hot as guitar and hi-fi amp tubes get.

Really, outside of a tiny handful of manufacturers like Metasonix and Zerosum, most are just tacking on tubes for the "cool" factor, rather than actually designing anything worthwhile with them (I'm beginning to understand where Eric gets his attitude from). Probably just by kyping tube circuits from old textoooks without any real understand of how to use tubes, let alone really designing anything around them.

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Re: Series of Tubes

Post by electricanada » Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:12 pm

guigui wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:54 am
I'm looking for some good tube modules to add some saturation and I'd like to know which ones to you recommend. Erica Synths, Klangbau, L-1, Bizarre Jezabel (mimosa, I'm specially interested in this one)? I'm not interested only on VCAs.

I'd say metasonix and troggotronic are almost ruled out due to high power consumption.
The Trog I have runs mostly off its own wall wart, so you don't need to worry too much about your case power. Some of the Metasonix modules don't require all that much power.
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Re: Series of Tubes

Post by adaris » Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:42 pm

luchog wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:46 pm
adaris wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:12 pm
On the other hand I recently got a Sognage Cephalopod, and according to Sognage it uses 39 mA at +12V and 146mA at -12V, with little or no inrush spike on cold startup.
Looking at this, this isn't really a tube circuit. It's just a weak, under-powered tube preamp on top of an ordinary solid-state filter and compressor; and exists solely to add a tiny bit of tube "colour". Like Erica's Fusion stuff, it's pretty much just a bog-standard solid state circuit with a tube tacked on to add a bit of hype and waveshaping. It would take at least three or four tubes to peform all those functions in a single module if it was all tube-based circuits.

The only way you're getting a real tube circuit at those current levels is if you're using the tiny, "pencil tubes" designed for battery-operated radios and hearing aids. And those really aren't going to give you the gain and power handling needed to really be effective at the voltage and current levels used in most synth formats. Not unless you're running them very hot.

Metasonix's stuff (and Zerosum's if you're looking at 5U) are using tubes as the core of the circuit, not as add-ons (don't know about Trogo, haven't really looked at their circuits). And it's important to keep in mind that even then, Metasonix (and Zerosum) are running their tubes about 20% underpowered, which extends tube life considerably, with only a small loss of performance. That's why you see guitarists and audiophiles spending fifty to a hundred bucks replacing their 12As and 6L6s and ECC8s evey year or two; they're burning out their tubes (even if they're still functional, performance drops rapidly as they age under those conditions). I've rarely had the tubes in my Metasonix gear ever get too hot to touch comfortably, certainly nowhere hear as hot as guitar and hi-fi amp tubes get.

Really, outside of a tiny handful of manufacturers like Metasonix and Zerosum, most are just tacking on tubes for the "cool" factor, rather than actually designing anything worthwhile with them (I'm beginning to understand where Eric gets his attitude from). Probably just by kyping tube circuits from old textoooks without any real understand of how to use tubes, let alone really designing anything around them.
Well neither Sognage nor myself have made any claims about the entire module being a tube circuit - I think it's pretty clear from the description on their website that it isn't. But the OP asked about tube modules that don't use a ton of current and it qualifies, even if you think it's "just a bog-standard solid state circuit with a tube tacked on to add a bit of hype and waveshaping". Personally I would say that in use it does not feel like this to me.

I realize that Metasonix runs their tubes conservatively compared to guitar amps, Eric makes a point of emphasizing as much in all the manuals, but nevertheless, the tubes in some of their modules do still get hot. The base of each tube in my R-56 or RK3 for example gets too hot to hold my finger in contact with after 10-15 minutes. By comparison the tube in the Cephalopod does not get as hot. I guess others can decide for themselves whether that means it's a "weak, under-powered" tube module or not, but I would point out that tube guitar amp users could say the exact same thing about Metasonix modules if their only criterion is how hard the tubes are pushed.

You seem to be making some pretty sweeping assumptions here about a module you've never used. I like Metasonix modules, but so far I've also been very pleased with the sounds I'm getting out of my Cephalopod, and I'm not going to discount what I'm hearing just because a guy on Muffs thinks the tube has to consume X amount of current or else it must be a gimmick. I didn't purchase the Cephalopod in the hopes it would be just like Metasonix - I purchased it because it looked like it might be its own thing, and IMO it is.

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Re: Series of Tubes

Post by EATyourGUITAR » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:34 pm

if it doesn't have huge power consumption then you got ripped off with a starved plate design. will it distort? sure. so does a $20 behringer ds-1 clone. does the tube light up? sure, korg has an amber LED right there to make the tube glow. heaters = high voltage dc = real tube circuits. I'm not saying that you shouldn't buy other stuff with fake tube circuits. but if you have a rule against buying real tubes because of power consumption then there really isn't any reason why a tube is better than a non-tube circuit at being non-linear. it is a false hope that a starved plate will yield classic tube saturation. you go all the way or else just ask about saturation, don't ask us for tube saturation if you really don't want to buy it anyway. power consumption is not an excuse to avoid something. you just buy a bigger power supply. if you don't want to spend the money then don't buy tubes.
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Re: Series of Tubes

Post by luchog » Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:07 pm

adaris wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:42 pm
You seem to be making some pretty sweeping assumptions here about a module you've never used.
But for which there are quite a few demos I can very easily listen to.
I like Metasonix modules, but so far I've also been very pleased with the sounds I'm getting out of my Cephalopod, and I'm not going to discount what I'm hearing just because a guy on Muffs thinks the tube has to consume X amount of current or else it must be a gimmick. I didn't purchase the Cephalopod in the hopes it would be just like Metasonix - I purchased it because it looked like it might be its own thing, and IMO it is.
The point, which seems to have gotten missed, was that this is a thread about tube modules, and the Cephalopod isn't a tube module. It's a solid state module which happens to have a tube tacked on for visual effect; since it contributes mainly to the price of the module, and little or nothing to the actual sound. LIstening to the Cephalopod demos, I'm not really hearing anything about it that says "tubes". Just yet another solid state filter and compressor.

The fun of tubes is that they're flaky, crunchy, unstable, and have weird harmonic responses. That's why they're still insanely popular with guitarists despite the cost, fragility, and upkeep. Anything else can be achieved in solid state more cheaply, easily, and with far with less obnoxious power requirements, particularly with modern modeling amps. Without that quirkiness, it's purely about image.

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Re: Series of Tubes

Post by adaris » Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:48 pm

luchog wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:07 pm
adaris wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:42 pm
You seem to be making some pretty sweeping assumptions here about a module you've never used.
But for which there are quite a few demos I can very easily listen to.
I like Metasonix modules, but so far I've also been very pleased with the sounds I'm getting out of my Cephalopod, and I'm not going to discount what I'm hearing just because a guy on Muffs thinks the tube has to consume X amount of current or else it must be a gimmick. I didn't purchase the Cephalopod in the hopes it would be just like Metasonix - I purchased it because it looked like it might be its own thing, and IMO it is.
The point, which seems to have gotten missed, was that this is a thread about tube modules, and the Cephalopod isn't a tube module. It's a solid state module which happens to have a tube tacked on for visual effect; since it contributes mainly to the price of the module, and little or nothing to the actual sound. LIstening to the Cephalopod demos, I'm not really hearing anything about it that says "tubes". Just yet another solid state filter and compressor.

The fun of tubes is that they're flaky, crunchy, unstable, and have weird harmonic responses. That's why they're still insanely popular with guitarists despite the cost, fragility, and upkeep. Anything else can be achieved in solid state more cheaply, easily, and with far with less obnoxious power requirements, particularly with modern modeling amps. Without that quirkiness, it's purely about image.
No the point wasn't missed, because 1) The OP, who isn't you, clearly isn't defining "tube module" as strictly as you are and 2) Unlike you I actually own the Cephalopod, and I know the sounds I'm getting out of it. So I stand by my recommendation. If you want to be a Metasonix hipster and tell yourself that the tube is there purely for visual effect then go ahead, I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince you.

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Re: Series of Tubes

Post by luchog » Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:56 pm

adaris wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:48 pm
No the point wasn't missed, because 1) The OP, who isn't you, clearly isn't defining "tube module" as strictly as you are and 2) Unlike you I actually own the Cephalopod, and I know the sounds I'm getting out of it. So I stand by my recommendation. If you want to be a Metasonix hipster and tell yourself that the tube is there purely for visual effect then go ahead, I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince you.
:lol: Resorting to insults tells me all I need to know about where you're coming from. And since I'm not interested in trading insults with people who can't answer a point, have fun with your "tube" module.

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Re: Series of Tubes

Post by adaris » Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:58 pm

luchog wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:56 pm
adaris wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:48 pm
No the point wasn't missed, because 1) The OP, who isn't you, clearly isn't defining "tube module" as strictly as you are and 2) Unlike you I actually own the Cephalopod, and I know the sounds I'm getting out of it. So I stand by my recommendation. If you want to be a Metasonix hipster and tell yourself that the tube is there purely for visual effect then go ahead, I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince you.
:lol: Resorting to insults tells me all I need to know about where you're coming from. And since I'm not interested in trading insults with people who can't answer a point, have fun with your "tube" module.
I will, thanks.

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Re: Series of Tubes

Post by guigui » Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:57 pm

I couldn't define what I meant by "tube modules" because I didn't know there was a difference between a essentially tube module and other modules.

From my humble and ignorant point of view I'd call them all tube modules, but I believe in what you guys said about Metasonix and Cephalopod.

I do think power consumption is a reason ("excuse" ?) to avoid something. It's basically the same principle by which people get smaller modules to fit their cases instead of getting bigger cases to use bigger modules.

Yet,I'm still considering Metasonix and Trogotronic modules. If it's worth it I would make some changes on my rack to use them.

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Re: Series of Tubes

Post by Funky40 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:18 pm

update, since i mentioned the Plankton NuTone here:
it has bleed !

so far, i was using it *only* with one signal coming in.
going thru one stage or both.......or with stereo signals.
now i run a patch with two independent signals. A abrasive Bass-lead and a kick.
......oh well :despair:

and versus kicks:
its very great on kicks like the MI peaks spits out.
But sending the jomox mBase thru it is it an entire different story and i can´t find the good win.

/ just keep my previous posts in relation


yes, i still like the module ! but its a drawback. ......since the bleed *in my patch* is quite hefty.
there you go. ........euroland as it is !
For sale / reduced prices ( swiss (we are NON-EU)/ in case it makes sense_ EU/WW)(CHF +- = $):
lowered prices: Dotcom Q960: 650.- / Q119: 420 / ( i also have one or much likely two 19" Frames)
ATV A-Frame incl. Accu and Bag: 830.-, like new, quasi unused.

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Re: Series of Tubes

Post by Funky40 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:15 pm

my point of view on the "purist" discussion:


WE ARE NOT GUITAR LAND !
we are eurorack ! ......this relates allready alots, imo.


its quite LONG, sorry:
I personally got me a *real* Tube amp from a fellow Wiggler years back, incl. a loadbox.
It has 5 Tubes and seems to be a Vox Amp pulled from a GuitarTop, plus DIY work Metal Caging added.
I got it solely to add tube sound to my modular ! .......but must guess its not the top crop, since the other wiggler sold it, and mentioned to have another one.
Anyway, 5 real tubes, running on 220V ( not your loughworthy 110V in the US.......little purists joke, ;) / sorry for that ) .
It came inclouding a different set of tubes or even two more sets.........from a guy who seems to be into all this.
( that part in short: its unused since years. space problems, rearranging scenarios, heat problems in summer /
But would have been in use ofcourse if it was giving me more win than it did ........back then. / who knows how it would look today ?.....i want to bring it back to use since 2-3 years in fact !)
anyway,
at least do i know "REAL Tube Sound" versus eurorack.


MY verdict for now:
i go for my ears !!

and to me is Tube sound ..........within euroland..........not soooooo much away from just patching with wavemultiplieres or other type of wave shapers,
since the Tubes do quite rapidly.....forgot the term..........you know, creating something like a square wave out of everything.
At least wehn looking superficial to it.
BUT: if we hit even harder, ....or try to just hit subtile.......are other worlds opening. **/true.
BUUT: then is *EACH Module* a thing of its own ! and not only the tuby ones relevant, but also others.
** All also *totally* dependend, IMHO, on what materials you feed to your Tube module. incl. gainstaging as a factor of course.
( and yes, i´m aware of how great feedback patched over just a TL072 can sound ! i´m the Guy who has incorporated feedback loops into his DIY mixers back then, inclouding a additional, adjustable gain stage! )

i have:
_installed: Electric Dog Tube VCA ( full DIY only) ( quite unknown, super simple circuitry !! uses a specific miniTube)
_un-installed: CGS Tube VCA ( uses also a mini tube. probably a bit bigger than the one above)( seems my modules never went into real Tube drive,out of whatever reasons )
_installed: over Thonk: Stralak Orsel from Touellskouram ( or so) (DIY-kit)( normal sized tube. Not warm ! has LEDs, haha )
_Erica Fusion RM ( Tube, normal sized, seems to be a little warmer than a average warm digital Module on the back No LEDs in sight, hehe )

_pseudo-Tube: Plankton NuTone ( with korgs nuTube)
_afaik, no tube but a Brother: Erica Plasma Drive ( with a plasma "Tube")



i go with my ears:
i had GREAT Results with all of them !
and i can run easily into patch situations where each of them entirely fails......or just try to set it clean ;)

when i patch tubes, do i patch several ones and patch over crossfaders. Gives me the best way to learn how they act, on what signals they shine,
comapring this way also one Module to the others which seems a good way to go.


its a science in itself to learn to patch with tubes. The purist-ism on Tubes seems to be wrong placed when it comes to euroland.

Guess thats how i see it.
For sale / reduced prices ( swiss (we are NON-EU)/ in case it makes sense_ EU/WW)(CHF +- = $):
lowered prices: Dotcom Q960: 650.- / Q119: 420 / ( i also have one or much likely two 19" Frames)
ATV A-Frame incl. Accu and Bag: 830.-, like new, quasi unused.

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Re: Series of Tubes

Post by adaris » Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:40 pm

Agreed Funky40. The only thing that ultimately matters is how it sounds. Most of the time these "pure" vacuum tube modules are being used in an audio chain with other solid state modules anyway. If I put a solid state filter after a Metasonix RK2 does it all of a sudden lose any and all tube characteristics? And exactly how many mA does a vacuum tube have to use in order to not be considered a current-starved gimmick? (Let me guess - whatever the least power-hungry Metasonix module currently consumes, to be updated if and when they release a new module that requires less current).

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Yes Powder
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Re: Series of Tubes

Post by Yes Powder » Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:12 pm

adaris wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:40 pm
If I put a solid state filter after a Metasonix RK2 does it all of a sudden lose any and all tube characteristics?
I was gonna ignore this whole argument, but I gotta stop you right there.
No, a filter after an RK2 won't make the RK2 lose its tube characteristics— but it won't make the filter behave like a tube filter either. I think the big fallacy here is the assumption a tube filter in saturation would sound and behave like a solid-state filter, just with more "warmth" or "tube phatness". While at some settings you may indeed just get that, other settings that take the tubes outside their linear ranges will sounds and even behave quite differently than you'd probably expect.
And exactly how many mA does a vacuum tube have to use in order to not be considered a current-starved gimmick? (Let me guess - whatever the least power-hungry Metasonix module currently consumes, to be updated if and when they release a new module that requires less current).
Actually that varies from tube to tube. There are plenty of resources online where you can check the normal operating ranges of any given tube such as The National Valve Museum which contains datasheets for thousands of different tubes.
A 12AX7 (the tube in the Cephalopod) for instance requires 12V/150mA, assuming the heaters are run in series. This doesn't account for the inrush current, which may be approximately double or even triple that. The Cephalopod's power draw claims 146mA on the -12 rail, which is close enough to that, assuming the entirety of that rail is going into the heater. While it's possible that Sognage were extra-clever with their design and devised some sort of startup current limiter, industry trends of putting tubes in things like synths and guitar pedals suggest that they may be current-starved as Luchog fears. I can't find anything to suggest either way on this, so without the developer's input or someone willing to open up their module and draw out the schematic, we can only really speculate.

I'm sure the Cephalopod is a fine module, and you're definitely allowed to like it. I believe what Luchog was trying to say though is that if OP is looking to add some tube modules by means of ones that only use the tube as a signal preamp or booster, they might be better off just buying one module like an L1 Tube VCA or GMSN! Safety Valve (or both!) and plugging other modules into that as needed.
That would be my 2¢, at least. :cookiemonster:

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Re: Series of Tubes

Post by EATyourGUITAR » Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:39 pm

guigui wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:57 pm
If it's worth it I would make some changes on my rack to use them.
that is entirely your decision. I don't want to push people into expensive gear they might not need or like. as always, use your ears. all these tube modules are good at something but there is a huge range of $100 to $3000 for the thermionic culture culture vulture or some cgs tube vca. the bizare jezebel sounds amazing so I don't really care what it is made out of. I wouldn't use it to replace a trogotronic dual VCA or a culture vulture. I wouldn't use a eurorack miasma distortion to replace a soldano supercharger GTO pedal.
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