Design of modular gear

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negativspace
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Post by negativspace » Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:52 pm

nblazer201 wrote:Do you guys want to talk about design standards in eurorack, or just be trolls with petty useless things to say?
As far as I can tell by reading the thread to this point, we're here for the former. Unfortunately you seem to have the latter pretty much under control which is making that difficult to achieve.

The fact that nobody agrees with you isn't because we're all a bunch of idiot fanbois who wouldn't understand the concept of "design" if it tied us down and wrote its manifesto in Rapidograph pen on our foreheads. It's because you're addressing the community at large in an incredibly disrespectful and condescending way, and at the first suggestion of dissent you launch into a shrieking tirade of insults AND CAPITAL LETTERS AS IF THAT WILL HELP US TO UNDERSTAND YOU BETTER.

I know you're relatively new here so you may not have picked up on this yet, but behavior like yours doesn't get anyone very far at this forum. Too many thoughtful, mature people here to respond to an internet bully.

If you're genuinely interested in discussing Eurorack design standards then by all means please continue, but you'll get a much better discussion if you ratchet down the crazy a little bit and drop the notion that anyone who disagrees with you simply doesn't understand the subject.

FYI my profession for 15 years before getting into modulars was graphic design. My educational background is in for-print and 3d design. I've placed pieces in juried shows on more than one occasion and have even taught at the college level as a "non-graduate graduate assistant" for a semester. If you wanna talk design, brother, I can talk design.

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dubonaire
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Post by dubonaire » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:07 pm

I'm all for good interface design but realise some designers and users prefer something more opaque. I can live with that.

Actually what would be really useful for makers to provide, especially for some of the more novel modules, are block diagrams using a standard set of symbols so the signal path and processes in the module can be more readily grasped.

Another good user manual example is Intellijel's Dr Octature manual which comprises patch examples. The Dr Octature has a very clearly laid out well designed interface but that on its own doesn't tell you about all the possibilities. Which also proves good interface design doesn't always solve everything for the user.

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Post by carlosnyb » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:14 pm

nblazer201 wrote:Why is everyone here so upset over an opinion that the design standards in eurorack should be raised? I am not saying clone the same designs, I am saying improve visual feedback and readability of modules.
It's possible to criticize user interfaces or poor manuals without a harsh nasty attitude -- "they shouldn't be in business", etc., is on the harsh side and alienates people.
nblazer201 wrote:And no one here is even acknowledging that I have a really positive attitude towards the eurorack leaders of design...
Your positive attitude isn't being communicated all that well, then.
nblazer201 wrote:Thats the point, a module can be crazy and better designed, and I think that manufacturers need to drop the bull shit holier than art customers stuff because across any engineering discipline you are suppose to know, "There are no stupid users, only stupid designers"
Do you see how this could come across as self-righteous or as axe-grinding?

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Crandall1
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Post by Crandall1 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:24 pm

As a professional instrument and effects designer, both hard- and soft-ware, for several very big companies, several medium-sized companies, and my own small company, and with nearly a hundred commercial products under my belt, let me state the following:

The initial premise that started this thread is stupid. Eric's comment that engendered it is assholish (he always has, and always will, place the onus on the customer; he can't get mad when the customer doesn't understand some nonsensical shit like "Ball Dingler" or whatever.) Good design doesn't require a manual. Bad design requires a good manual.

That said, you don't get to DEMAND (your emphasis) anything. We make what we make, each and all of is. If it isn't something you like, you vote with your dollars, or the lack thereof. Companies that cater to people that want their modular to look nice will sell modules to those people. Companies that cater to "form follows function" users will sell modules to those people. This business isn't big enough to support the ecosystem of professional designers that ensures a fairly high bar, but it is big enough to support a multitude of different approaches to the same problem.

Variety. It's the spice of life.

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Post by Junk Rhythm » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:33 pm

Crandall1 wrote: That said, you don't get to DEMAND (your emphasis) anything. We make what we make, each and all of is. If it isn't something you like, you vote with your dollars, or the lack thereof. Companies that cater to people that want their modular to look nice will sell modules to those people. Companies that cater to "form follows function" users will sell modules to those people. This business isn't big enough to support the ecosystem of professional designers that ensures a fairly high bar, but it is big enough to support a multitude of different approaches to the same problem.

Variety. It's the spice of life.
This! Especially the last statement.

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Post by ignatius » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:37 pm

fucking cilantro dude...

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Post by aen » Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:00 pm

No S'lantro over here. Keep it out of my breedo.

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Post by negativspace » Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:07 pm

I love cilantro. But we've had this discussion before. :hihi:

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Post by stickmann » Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:33 pm

"I'm an engineer and I'm here to tell you that there is only one to design a module!"

Good luck with that. Especially with your one great recommendation:

"Build the panel first."

Okay..

If you don't like the module, don't buy it. Simple as that. Economics takes care of the rest. It shouldn't be hard to figure out what you don't like. All you have to do is look at the panel, apparently.

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Post by nblazer201 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:19 pm

stickmann wrote:"I'm an engineer and I'm here to tell you that there is only one to design a module!"

Good luck with that. Especially with your one great recommendation:

"Build the panel first."

Okay..

If you don't like the module, don't buy it. Simple as that. Economics takes care of the rest. It shouldn't be hard to figure out what you don't like. All you have to do is look at the panel, apparently.
I am not saying that there is only one way to design a module, I am just saying that design should be more valued.

This is the most defensive forum possible.... you have all essentially put words in my mouth and are angry at the suggestion that Eurorack design standards are bellow par for boutique electronics. I am not saying to conform, just improve. And I am NOT TALKING ABOUT HOW THE MODULE LOOKS, I am talking about button grouping, layout, visual feedback, the design that enhances functionality.

I clearly see that people here are mostly slaves to manufacturers....
The Eurorack gods are beyond criticism.......
This is pretty much just a promotional board for manufacturers and people defending brands they purchased.
Baaahhhhhhh Bahhhhhh Bahhhhhhh sheep.

This is the community that bends over and lets companies like Plan B take advantage of you.
Last edited by nblazer201 on Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Barlov » Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:23 pm

Crandall1 wrote:Variety. It's the spice of life.
No no no. We want squelchy TB-303 and TR-606 drum sounds. None of this variety spice.

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Post by nblazer201 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:30 pm

Barlov wrote:
Crandall1 wrote:Variety. It's the spice of life.
No no no. We want squelchy TB-303 and TR-606 drum sounds. None of this variety spice.
Why can't you just apply grey scale like designs to Make Noise's panels? Why is there this false correlation between improving designs of modules and making clones. Your comment makes no sense.

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Post by LeCCComte » Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:39 pm

nblazer201 wrote:I am talking about button grouping, layout, visual feedback, the design that enhances functionality.
You were finally going to give examples for us to discuss about
(foe example I think the "less hp please" isn't a good way to design things)

AND THEN :
I clearly see that people here are mostly slaves to manufacturers....
The Eurorack gods are beyond criticism.......
This is pretty much just a promotional board for manufacturers and people defending brands they purchased.
Baaahhhhhhh Bahhhhhh Bahhhhhhh sheep.
SEVEN FUCKING DOTS :omg:

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Post by BugBrand » Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:48 pm

Off-the-cuff -> wonder what nblazer will sell when 100 posts is reached?!

Back-on -> having spent 4 years building up my own modular system 'standard' & having learned a lot , I can imagine it is very hard to go against the grain or to step off once you've 'committed' to euro or a general approach of design - ie. either to step outside the popular format, or to say "I learned X from the last years, but now I'm going to move on to a new version which I believe is better" (maybe pisses some people off -- can be caused by design factors [oh, don't want to fit everything into a small space, do I always want to work in true building block approaches for 'instruments', build considerations, onward electronics learning, etc.] and/or by other life factors [modular work, for me at least, was massively consuming - great for a while, but couldn't continue when life changed])

Anyways, there's been some very astute points from several interesting people here (Dave Jones, Chris Randall, etc).


By the way, I feel it is a bit more back&forth around panel and circuit designs -- maybe pinging back several times as you streamline things at a circuit level - we are generally talking about manufacturing (small scale, granted) after all..
Last edited by BugBrand on Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by freeyerheel » Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:53 pm

metasonix= IN, CV, OUT and oh so much more, once i put the tube in an orifice and got it too make a sorta moaning sound! i likey yellow modules!

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Post by nblazer201 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:54 pm

LeCCComte wrote:
nblazer201 wrote:I am talking about button grouping, layout, visual feedback, the design that enhances functionality.
You were finally going to give examples for us to discuss about
(foe example I think the "less hp please" isn't a good way to design things)

AND THEN :
I clearly see that people here are mostly slaves to manufacturers....
The Eurorack gods are beyond criticism.......
This is pretty much just a promotional board for manufacturers and people defending brands they purchased.
Baaahhhhhhh Bahhhhhh Bahhhhhhh sheep.

SEVEN FUCKING DOTS :omg:
Your existence is meaningless :banana: :banana: :banana:
And pretty much nothing you have said amount more to a child on the side of the road being startled by a loud noise. If I was your mother I would have designed you differently, starting from the panel.

Would it really destroy Eurorack if we came together as a community and set a loose standard for companies to follow that inputs blend in with the panel color, and outputs are a contrasting color aka. Intellijel style? Are simple heuristics across modules for companies to loosley follow really that bad of an idea? Good design can communicate a whole manuals worth of information from a glance. I are not expecting to set strict guidelines for companies, obviously that is silly, and it is exciting when people break the rules. But isn't it time in Eurorack's life cycle to start "growing up". The design standards were set my Doepfer and have hovered around that bar for a while.
Last edited by nblazer201 on Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by polyroy » Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:00 pm

BugBrand wrote:Off-the-cuff -> wonder what nblazer will sell when 100 posts is reached?!
All his 4 page Metasonix manuals.

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Post by Barlov » Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:01 pm

nblazer201 wrote:
Barlov wrote:
Crandall1 wrote:Variety. It's the spice of life.
No no no. We want squelchy TB-303 and TR-606 drum sounds. None of this variety spice.
Why can't you just apply grey scale like designs to Make Noise's panels? Why is there this false correlation between improving designs of modules and making clones. Your comment makes no sense.
Completely missed the point of my sarcastic comment in the first place. Relax dude.

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Post by nblazer201 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:02 pm

polyroy wrote:
BugBrand wrote:Off-the-cuff -> wonder what nblazer will sell when 100 posts is reached?!
All his 4 page Metasonix manuals.
Metasonix doesn't love you like I love you my sweet child.
If you email them for a question they will think in the back of their heads "fuck this dumb ass" as they write you a nice email.


I would open my arms, look you straight in the eyes, and embrace you.

Come to Nblazer201, feel the love baby.

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Post by nblazer201 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:03 pm

Barlov wrote:
nblazer201 wrote:
Barlov wrote:
Crandall1 wrote:Variety. It's the spice of life.
No no no. We want squelchy TB-303 and TR-606 drum sounds. None of this variety spice.
Why can't you just apply grey scale like designs to Make Noise's panels? Why is there this false correlation between improving designs of modules and making clones. Your comment makes no sense.
Completely missed the point of my sarcastic comment in the first place. Relax dude.
Sorry lol, I am on edge, in case you havn't realized I am getting my asshole beaten in right now for something I feel pretty strongly about.

I apologize :party: :party: :party:

This has somehow brought out a very salty side of myself and I apologize to everyone,
I didn't mean to be a negative thread initially, I just read that post by Metasonix, and got upset because it is quite different than how I deal with my customers. This thread was more so meant to give out a ton of LOVE to Modcan, Verbos, Intellijel, and 4ms... so sorry all.

But I do still think it's ok to be angry on this forum and criticise a manufactuer freely. This is what engineering and technology is about, constantly improving and canabalizing old practices into new and improved ones.

Is the problem in Eurorack that companies don't really work together and collaborate on any sense of "standards" like software companies or mechanical engineering companies do? I see the appeal in variety, my rack has a ton of different manufacturers. All I am saying, is that we should start to look at the eurorack format from a higher level to increase interplay, accessiblity, and functionality.
Last edited by nblazer201 on Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by reppiks » Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:06 pm

nblazer201 wrote:it is exciting when people break the rules.
Sums up Eurorack perfectly :tu:

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Post by nblazer201 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:09 pm

reppiks wrote:
nblazer201 wrote:it is exciting when people break the rules.
Sums up Eurorack perfectly :tu:
But the problem in eurorack is that THERE ARE NO RULES TO BREAK!

It is just a mish mosh, hodge podge, of complete whateverness.
Which is cool and foundational to the format, but can't we benefit from even the slightest standards? Doesn't that make being crazy and out there even more special?

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Post by LeCCComte » Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:15 pm

nblazer201 wrote:
LeCCComte wrote:
nblazer201 wrote:I am talking about button grouping, layout, visual feedback, the design that enhances functionality.
You were finally going to give examples for us to discuss about
(foe example I think the "less hp please" isn't a good way to design things)

AND THEN :
I clearly see that people here are mostly slaves to manufacturers....
The Eurorack gods are beyond criticism.......
This is pretty much just a promotional board for manufacturers and people defending brands they purchased.
Baaahhhhhhh Bahhhhhh Bahhhhhhh sheep.

SEVEN FUCKING DOTS :omg:
Your existence is meaningless :banana: :banana: :banana:
And pretty much nothing you have said amount more to a child on the side of the road being startled by a loud noise. If I was your mother I would have designed you differently, starting from the panel.

Would it really destroy Eurorack if we came together as a community and set a loose standard for companies to follow that inputs blend in with the panel color, and outputs are a contrasting color aka. Intellijel style? Are simple heuristics across modules for companies to loosley follow really that bad of an idea? Good design can communicate a whole manuals worth of information from a glance. I are not expecting to set strict guidelines for companies, obviously that is silly, and it is exciting when people break the rules. But isn't it time in Eurorack's life cycle to start "growing up". The design standards were set my Doepfer and have hovered around that bar for a while.

thx god you're not my mother
And don't you talk about her please, you're just becoming a huge asshole.

Have a nice thread.

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Post by sloth713 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:17 pm

There are three rule in eurorack as far as I can tell

1.Never blindly trust power ribbon cable orientation
2.Do not patch output to outputs
3.Do not use mults as mixers

So as far as I can tell the major area that would benefit from standardizations are power connects and that has been discussed to death.


What would be really interesting nblazer201, is if you could lay out a brief uncluttered technical thesis on what you think these standards should be. That way the real discussion can begin.

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ether
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Post by ether » Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:17 pm

Fixed it.

Image

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