Deliberately avoiding popular products.

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felixer
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Post by felixer » Sat May 26, 2018 11:21 am

addendum wrote:
ersatzplanet wrote:All guitars basically sound the same. It is how you treat, or mis-treat them that gives the differences that sets apart every rock genre from each other and from folk and country and every other type of music that uses guitars. Everyone with a Stratocaster sound the same? Everyone with a Les Paul?
But you can do as the OP suggests by choosing guitars that aren't typical for your genre. Like using a guitar with soft attack when most other bands in your style use fast attacks, or vice versa, or use atypical pickups, amps etc.

So, if "avoiding popular products" is refined into "popular/ typical in a specific environment", it absolutely makes sense to me.
much better to learn how to play the damn thing. in the end the sound comes from your hands: listen to jeff beck for a good examle of that. his setup is very simple/straighforward but nobody sounds like him. almost the same gear as hendrix (or blackmore) but there is no chance of confusing them.
also get into some theory and understand the basis of our 12note system. then you can go around that and be original on any guitar/amp.
too many people believe that music comes from some special box or something. in the end it is in your head first, fingers second and instrument last. it may also be usefull to listen to players on other instruments: if you're a guitarist listen to sax players or horns. if you play piano get into some baroque stuff (cembalo) and listen to how thay play. listen to cecil taylor. bartok. stockhausen. xenakis. those all made new music on an old instrument. and the result is nothing like mozart/beethoven. although they still use the same 80odd keys.
don't need midi, don't need keys, just want knobs and cables (all together now ;-)

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Post by lisa » Sat May 26, 2018 12:11 pm

mousegarden wrote:
DallasKnight wrote:I think it's almost impossible to make music that is truly original nowadays
It is completely impossible in my opinion.
It really depends on your definition of "original". If you mean that every aspect should be done for the first time then there's really been no truly original music since the big bang. ;) If music can be deemed original even if all the elements have been done before then then there is plenty.

When I was young and started to listen to then modern electronic music people told me that these artist where just ripping off other artists like Kraftwerk and Yello. So I listened to the "originals" and I hated their music. It sounded so lame to me. The new stuff where exciting, Kraftwerk sounded like uninteresting crap in comparison. Even if there where connections and many of the artists I listened to mentioned Kraftwerk and Yello as their inspiration they'd taken it to a new level. That's original in my opinion. And if you accept that view then there are tons of original artists today too.
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Post by addendum » Sat May 26, 2018 3:41 pm

felixer wrote:
addendum wrote:
ersatzplanet wrote:All guitars basically sound the same. It is how you treat, or mis-treat them that gives the differences that sets apart every rock genre from each other and from folk and country and every other type of music that uses guitars. Everyone with a Stratocaster sound the same? Everyone with a Les Paul?
But you can do as the OP suggests by choosing guitars that aren't typical for your genre. Like using a guitar with soft attack when most other bands in your style use fast attacks, or vice versa, or use atypical pickups, amps etc.

So, if "avoiding popular products" is refined into "popular/ typical in a specific environment", it absolutely makes sense to me.
much better to learn how to play the damn thing. in the end the sound comes from your hands: listen to jeff beck for a good examle of that. his setup is very simple/straighforward but nobody sounds like him. almost the same gear as hendrix (or blackmore) but there is no chance of confusing them.
also get into some theory and understand the basis of our 12note system. then you can go around that and be original on any guitar/amp.
too many people believe that music comes from some special box or something. in the end it is in your head first, fingers second and instrument last. it may also be usefull to listen to players on other instruments: if you're a guitarist listen to sax players or horns. if you play piano get into some baroque stuff (cembalo) and listen to how thay play. listen to cecil taylor. bartok. stockhausen. xenakis. those all made new music on an old instrument. and the result is nothing like mozart/beethoven. although they still use the same 80odd keys.
Your target audience with this post seem to be people who confuse performance capability with gear acquisition. In which case you're outing yourself as spending too much time here, talking to wigglers ;-) Srsly, I'm in accord with that, even tho in the second paragraph you're trivializing it. But what I said and what you're saying is not a question of better vs worse or right and wrong, it's two completely different subjects. You are right with what you say, but even the greatest virtuoso will sound different (not necessarily "worse" or "better") on a different instrument than what they're known for the most. Whether it's guitars or violins or drum heads or microphones.

Let's use the human voice as a comparison. A singer can emulate another's technique, but they usually can't really imitate another's timbre unless they can magically morph their larynx, chest etc.

Finally, here's a nice example. Give this album a quick listen and then tell me what's special about it:
(If any metal fans here know what I mean, don't spoil it)

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Post by felixer » Sat May 26, 2018 5:07 pm

no, i thought we were talking about sound. and that comes from both sides: mainly performance and also gear.
wanting to be original is a fine thing to strive for (most don't) but it means you need to attack from all sides and obviously know the field.
not in the mood for metal now. might listen tomorrow ...
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Post by DJMaytag » Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:32 pm

I don't deliberately avoid buying anything, but definitely have not bought much if any of the "new shiny" products that have been released over the year. Maybe buying the OG Novation Bass Station as soon as it came out is the only thing newly released and popular that I've ever owned. I'm sure the disappointment I had with it helped me feel like I didn't want to buy any of the "hot new gear" in the 20 years since.

Caveat: many of my VSTi's are rather new, purchased shortly after release or their most recent major update.

That said, my hardware gear is mostly... what I happen to be able to find and/or afford at the time. I didn't set out to get an RX-11 recently, but it came up super cheap and it sounded interesting enough. I had some ideas that I wanted a digital synth in the near future, a different sound than all my analog gear, but I wasn't hunting high and low for a particular synth, but stumbled on a great deal on a SY-22 (also acquired this past week). It sounded interesting and fit the requirement I had, even though I probably would have preferred something like a K5000 or a Waldorf Microwave type synth.

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Post by mousegarden » Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:48 pm

I've just bought an EHX 16 second delay off a fellow wiggler, how popular can you get with loopers right now? Fuck it, I'm just going to tag it on the end of my Mini Moog and have some fun.

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Post by Dave Kendall » Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:09 am

I don't deliberately avoid popular gear, but am fairly suspicious of anything that's hyped - whether it's gear, music, an idea or a place.
That's because to my mind, those who are enthusiastic about (or highly critical of) some new thing tend to have the loudest voices out there, not the most significant voices.

But if I like something, I'll find a way to get it if I can. :)
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Post by felixer » Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:44 am

addendum wrote:
Finally, here's a nice example. Give this album a quick listen and then tell me what's special about it:
(If any metal fans here know what I mean, don't spoil it)
i really don't like this type of music. it sounds like a bunch of hooligans to me. also a rather cheap ripoff of slayer. minus the dumb texts. couldn't understand what these guys are shouting about. but that's prob a good thing. yuk!
and yeah, it's prob louder&faster then most stuff before that, but that's not a plus imho. production is ok, for this type of thing (everything louder then everything else, no dynamics). i'm sorry if i'm insulting somebody but this stuff really turns me off.
don't need midi, don't need keys, just want knobs and cables (all together now ;-)

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Post by mousegarden » Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:37 pm

I wonder when someone will bring out an MPC sized box that will replicate various modular systems, a 5U button, a Euro button, a Buchla button, etc etc. And all the various sounds, with presets labelled "Make Noise" "Doepfer" "Krell" "Generative" "West Cost" East Coast" "Berlin" etc etc, it could save a lot of folks a lot of money.

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Post by felixer » Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:44 pm

mousegarden wrote:I wonder when someone will bring out an MPC sized box that will replicate various modular systems, a 5U button, a Euro button, a Buchla button, etc etc. And all the various sounds, with presets labelled "Make Noise" "Doepfer" "Krell" "Generative" "West Cost" East Coast" "Berlin" etc etc, it could save a lot of folks a lot of money.
but the point is to make people pay as much as they (can't) afford. it's clear that you are not an industry type. do you want to ruin the economy? shame on you for such 'terrorist' ideas. the same does for many other fields. just imagine how 1 well designed car could be made very affordable. i don't even want to think about that ...
don't need midi, don't need keys, just want knobs and cables (all together now ;-)

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Post by Dr. Sketch-n-Etch » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:09 pm

Concerning the idea that all guitars more or less sound the same: I can make my guitars sound completely different just by using two different picks, with everything else exactly the same. My Washburn jazzbox sounds completely different than my Brian Moore solid-body, and my 1954 Martin 0018 sounds completely different than my Taylor dreadnought.

Concerning the idea that it is hard to make original music: It is hard to make good music. It is virtually impossible to sound like anybody else. Copying people is very very hard. Two classical musicians playing the same piece will almost always sound very different and be easily identified from one another. Anyone who has tried to transcribe a solo understands that it is an almost impossible task, and this is true even for highly skilled instrumentalists. You simply cannot become someone else when you play; you will always play you, and you're an original.
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Post by umma gumma » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:56 pm

tell that to all the SRV wannabee's at the gtr jams!

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Post by mousegarden » Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:36 am

felixer wrote:
mousegarden wrote:I wonder when someone will bring out an MPC sized box that will replicate various modular systems, a 5U button, a Euro button, a Buchla button, etc etc. And all the various sounds, with presets labelled "Make Noise" "Doepfer" "Krell" "Generative" "West Cost" East Coast" "Berlin" etc etc, it could save a lot of folks a lot of money.
but the point is to make people pay as much as they (can't) afford. it's clear that you are not an industry type. do you want to ruin the economy? shame on you for such 'terrorist' ideas. the same does for many other fields. just imagine how 1 well designed car could be made very affordable. i don't even want to think about that ...
Your theory is backed up nicely by the fact that the building industry still uses bricks and brick layers, the construction industry is based on "vested interests"
Buckminster Fuller knew that the world housing shortage could be solved at the drop of a hat, with houses made of cheap sheet materials, metals alloys and plastics, that would cost the same amount as a small cheap car.
But no, that will never, ever be allowed to happen.

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Post by Dr. Sketch-n-Etch » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:05 pm

mousegarden wrote:Buckminster Fuller knew that the world housing shortage could be solved at the drop of a hat, with houses made of cheap sheet materials, metals alloys and plastics, that would cost the same amount as a small cheap car.
But no, that will never, ever be allowed to happen.
In my experience, there is no housing shortage. There's an affordable land shortage. In Vancouver 30 years ago, the average house cost roughly 3 times the median annual salary. Today, it's 14 times (according to this morning's National Post newspaper). The actual house is almost worthless -- tear the house down and the vacant lot would cost almost as much. Vancouver is not unique in this respect.

Of course, our kids could easily afford to buy in Regina, but who wants to live in Regina and freeze ones knackers off?
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Post by felixer » Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:13 pm

mousegarden wrote:
felixer wrote:
mousegarden wrote:I wonder when someone will bring out an MPC sized box that will replicate various modular systems, a 5U button, a Euro button, a Buchla button, etc etc. And all the various sounds, with presets labelled "Make Noise" "Doepfer" "Krell" "Generative" "West Cost" East Coast" "Berlin" etc etc, it could save a lot of folks a lot of money.
but the point is to make people pay as much as they (can't) afford. it's clear that you are not an industry type. do you want to ruin the economy? shame on you for such 'terrorist' ideas. the same does for many other fields. just imagine how 1 well designed car could be made very affordable. i don't even want to think about that ...
Your theory is backed up nicely by the fact that the building industry still uses bricks and brick layers, the construction industry is based on "vested interests"
Buckminster Fuller knew that the world housing shortage could be solved at the drop of a hat, with houses made of cheap sheet materials, metals alloys and plastics, that would cost the same amount as a small cheap car.
But no, that will never, ever be allowed to happen.
right about that! in iceland i have seen very cheap/simple houses that work perfectly fine. still very expensive as all the materials have to be imported from oversees. hardly any trees (=wood) there and hardly any rivers (=bricks). sheetmetal seems to be the most effecient in houses per square meter of cargoload. paint that bright blue and you have your typical icelandic house 8-)
don't need midi, don't need keys, just want knobs and cables (all together now ;-)

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Post by dubonaire » Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:55 pm

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
mousegarden wrote:Buckminster Fuller knew that the world housing shortage could be solved at the drop of a hat, with houses made of cheap sheet materials, metals alloys and plastics, that would cost the same amount as a small cheap car.
But no, that will never, ever be allowed to happen.
In my experience, there is no housing shortage. There's an affordable land shortage. In Vancouver 30 years ago, the average house cost roughly 3 times the median annual salary. Today, it's 14 times (according to this morning's National Post newspaper). The actual house is almost worthless -- tear the house down and the vacant lot would cost almost as much. Vancouver is not unique in this respect.

Of course, our kids could easily afford to buy in Regina, but who wants to live in Regina and freeze ones knackers off?
That's absolutely spot on in expensive cities.

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Post by dubonaire » Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:06 am

felixer wrote:
mousegarden wrote:
felixer wrote:
mousegarden wrote:I wonder when someone will bring out an MPC sized box that will replicate various modular systems, a 5U button, a Euro button, a Buchla button, etc etc. And all the various sounds, with presets labelled "Make Noise" "Doepfer" "Krell" "Generative" "West Cost" East Coast" "Berlin" etc etc, it could save a lot of folks a lot of money.
but the point is to make people pay as much as they (can't) afford. it's clear that you are not an industry type. do you want to ruin the economy? shame on you for such 'terrorist' ideas. the same does for many other fields. just imagine how 1 well designed car could be made very affordable. i don't even want to think about that ...
Your theory is backed up nicely by the fact that the building industry still uses bricks and brick layers, the construction industry is based on "vested interests"
Buckminster Fuller knew that the world housing shortage could be solved at the drop of a hat, with houses made of cheap sheet materials, metals alloys and plastics, that would cost the same amount as a small cheap car.
But no, that will never, ever be allowed to happen.
right about that! in iceland i have seen very cheap/simple houses that work perfectly fine. still very expensive as all the materials have to be imported from oversees. hardly any trees (=wood) there and hardly any rivers (=bricks). sheetmetal seems to be the most effecient in houses per square meter of cargoload. paint that bright blue and you have your typical icelandic house 8-)
Sheetmetal is not such a great building material in the tropics.

Buckminster Fuller was an interesting person, many of his ideas were visionary for the time but also many are not that relevant now. He lived in a time when the lifecycle of materials was not much considered, and when manufactured and synthetic materials were seen as only solutions. An aluminium house would not be on the top of sustainable building designs today. But he was totally spot on in therms of geometrical solutions. Actually if you took the time to read architectural journals you will see that innovative and cheap materials is a common topic, but the most common topic now is sustainable materials, and sheet metal and plastics are not regarded as being particularly sustainable due to raw materials and embodied energy. The Buckminster Fuller prize is awarded to energy efficient designs now. Sheet metal has poor thermal properties, poor fire behaviour, weak corrosion resistance. Plastics may or may not have good fire protection, come from fossil fuels, lack durability from certain physical impacts. Both can have high embodied energy.

I don't think it's a matter of vested interests, it's a matter of rigid planning authorities, the capacities of builders, and the availability of materials. There are many examples of relatively cheap modular housing materials and components, but it's difficult to get them approved and built.

As it happens, bricks have a lot of desirable qualities: high thermal mass, good fire protection, storm and weather resistant, simple to manufacture and transport, simple to construct.

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Post by mousegarden » Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:39 am

dubonaire wrote:
felixer wrote:
mousegarden wrote:
felixer wrote:
mousegarden wrote:I wonder when someone will bring out an MPC sized box that will replicate various modular systems, a 5U button, a Euro button, a Buchla button, etc etc. And all the various sounds, with presets labelled "Make Noise" "Doepfer" "Krell" "Generative" "West Cost" East Coast" "Berlin" etc etc, it could save a lot of folks a lot of money.
but the point is to make people pay as much as they (can't) afford. it's clear that you are not an industry type. do you want to ruin the economy? shame on you for such 'terrorist' ideas. the same does for many other fields. just imagine how 1 well designed car could be made very affordable. i don't even want to think about that ...
Your theory is backed up nicely by the fact that the building industry still uses bricks and brick layers, the construction industry is based on "vested interests"
Buckminster Fuller knew that the world housing shortage could be solved at the drop of a hat, with houses made of cheap sheet materials, metals alloys and plastics, that would cost the same amount as a small cheap car.
But no, that will never, ever be allowed to happen.
right about that! in iceland i have seen very cheap/simple houses that work perfectly fine. still very expensive as all the materials have to be imported from oversees. hardly any trees (=wood) there and hardly any rivers (=bricks). sheetmetal seems to be the most effecient in houses per square meter of cargoload. paint that bright blue and you have your typical icelandic house 8-)
Sheetmetal is not such a great building material in the tropics.

Buckminster Fuller was an interesting person, many of his ideas were visionary for the time but also many are not that relevant now. He lived in a time when the lifecycle of materials was not much considered, and when manufactured and synthetic materials were seen as only solutions. An aluminium house would not be on the top of sustainable building designs today. But he was totally spot on in therms of geometrical solutions. Actually if you took the time to read architectural journals you will see that innovative and cheap materials is a common topic, but the most common topic now is sustainable materials, and sheet metal and plastics are not regarded as being particularly sustainable due to raw materials and embodied energy. The Buckminster Fuller prize is awarded to energy efficient designs now. Sheet metal has poor thermal properties, poor fire behaviour, weak corrosion resistance. Plastics may or may not have good fire protection, come from fossil fuels, lack durability from certain physical impacts. Both can have high embodied energy.

I don't think it's a matter of vested interests, it's a matter of rigid planning authorities, the capacities of builders, and the availability of materials. There are many examples of relatively cheap modular housing materials and components, but it's difficult to get them approved and built.

As it happens, bricks have a lot of desirable qualities: high thermal mass, good fire protection, storm and weather resistant, simple to manufacture and transport, simple to construct.
Fuller was also concerned about the weight to performance ratio of structures, I think he saw no reason why housing shouldn't be built along the same production lines as ships and cars.
Bricks are popular also because they are pretty, much prettier than sheet metal or glass!
My partner and I are always walking through London moaning, at the awful contrast between the ugly glass buildings that are going up all over central London, and the traditional buildings like St Pauls etc "how did they get permission for that monstrosity" is always what we say, when we see these new glass blocks of luxury flats. Of course, glass is cheap, thats why it's used in such huge quantities, but it's not energy efficient, it's hot in summer, and cold in winter.

PS, Dr Sketch, land is expensive here too, if we knocked down our house we'd still get as much, or more, for the land.

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Post by felixer » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:39 am

it prob is about the 'looks'. we're still living in the outgoing 'futuristic times'. look at all those 50ies sf stories. all cities/buildings are made of concrete, glass and steel. and all inhabitants are blond ... there is no dirt and no traffic (on the ground, lot of stuff flying around though). these fantasies are still with us.
while old materials (brick, wood) are so much better. for a nice living environment and because you can use'm again if you want to built something else. but many folks are still fucussed on 'modern' even if it is inferior. clay/loam is such a fantastic material but it's considered completely out of time. mind you, many old houses from the middleages (wood skeleton with loam fillings) are still standing, while many concerte builds have been demolished as the repair costs were prohibitive. and something like the granvilletower accident would never have happened if they had used proper (natural) materials. but the formula seems to be build cheap, cheap, cheap. and then sell expensive with some bullshit story. so it's just your usual greed, sad ... :zombie:
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Post by ZLAL » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:47 pm

Interrogating genre boundaries and working with stale, low culture, pulp, trite, and tired conventions and reworking back upon these ideas has long been a strategy for producing interesting work across all media.
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Post by matthewjuran » Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:32 pm

Can one only cover or imitate an existing genre because there’s always a community that can’t be recreated with microphones and instruments?

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Post by mousegarden » Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:04 am

ZLAL wrote:Interrogating genre boundaries and working with stale, low culture, pulp, trite, and tired conventions and reworking back upon these ideas has long been a strategy for producing interesting work across all media.
The world has become a post modern nightmare, everything's watered down, and phoney, everything, furniture, clothes, architecture and the arts. I've always liked purity of thought, and good composers and atitsts hide their influences very well, they aern't obvious and in your face, like that's supposed to be a virtue, and irony is used to cover a multitude of sins.

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Post by slumberjack » Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:53 am

mousegarden wrote:
ZLAL wrote:Interrogating genre boundaries and working with stale, low culture, pulp, trite, and tired conventions and reworking back upon these ideas has long been a strategy for producing interesting work across all media.
The world has become a post modern nightmare, everything's watered down, and phoney, everything, furniture, clothes, architecture and the arts. I've always liked purity of thought, and good composers and atitsts hide their influences very well, they aern't obvious and in your face, like that's supposed to be a virtue, and irony is used to cover a multitude of sins.
interesting turn this thread took. i'm in.

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Post by thevegasnerve » Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:27 am

mousegarden wrote:
ZLAL wrote:Interrogating genre boundaries and working with stale, low culture, pulp, trite, and tired conventions and reworking back upon these ideas has long been a strategy for producing interesting work across all media.
The world has become a post modern nightmare, everything's watered down, and phoney, everything, furniture, clothes, architecture and the arts. I've always liked purity of thought, and good composers and atitsts hide their influences very well, they aern't obvious and in your face, like that's supposed to be a virtue, and irony is used to cover a multitude of sins.
Yes, things are getting watered down to keep up with the speed of development, for lack of a better word. But that has opened up the appreciation for quality in a small sector of society, although you will be battered by many for appreciating or coveting such things..

I have stopped buying almost any gear the last two years and my recordings are getting more interesting as I learn to coax things out of my setup. Its become sort of a fun challenge. And I agree with the earlier assertion that trying to imitate someone else may be the greater challenge.. But technology and the evolution of culture probably drives originality to some extent. This is a circular discussion isnt it...??? :cloud:

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Post by Shledge » Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:53 am

I'd argue there was always a lot of shit, with a few diamonds in between. We tend to have rose tinted glasses about the "good old days" and completely gloss over that very same shit.

Personally I think we have it good today - the democratisation of music means there are plenty of diamonds/rough diamonds if you bother to look outside the pop charts.

Also, hiding influences? People can't hide their own farts if they tried!

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