Kermit mk III - coming soon

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Leverkusen
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Re: Kermit mk III - coming soon

Post by Leverkusen » Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:19 am

autopoiesis wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:47 am
paging IME.

this doesn't sound right at all.
I have sent the recordings to Scott and he said that the amplitude response sounds right to him but the oscillators C and D should not click that much. He suggested updating the firmware (was already on 1.1), which I did, though with no effect (the update process went smoothly with all successful feedback). Due to my lack of understanding regarding computer design I am not sure if it is possible that a corrupted firmware update would work somehow in general but buggy/strange in parts? Anyways, what left me a bit irritated was learning that the amplitude response is how he envisioned it...

I did a last recording now with a fixed Sample&Hold voltage from channel B to channel A frequency as I thought it would be more clear to hear the effect like that. Two rounds of turning amplitude on channel B up and down again - one fast, one slow.


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Re: Kermit mk III - coming soon

Post by autopoiesis » Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:57 pm

so the amplitude controls have some kind of a 4-step staircase response? both when manually controlled, and when controlled via CV? and the same shitty stepped response regardless of whether the amplitude-modulated channel is acting as an oscillator, LFO, envelope, or whatever?

this sounds legitimately much much worse than even the zippered resolution you get when using 7-bit MIDI signals to control a VST's volume. I don't understand this, not even on any kind of quirky sound aesthetic level. I want to love this module, as I do pretty much all of Scott's designs, but at 420€ this is inexcusable, to me.

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Re: Kermit mk III - coming soon

Post by brianobush » Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:55 am

Hopefully, this issue (stair-stepped response in amplitude) isn't hardware like an ADC/DAC limitation, or processing power limits. Given that there were numerous firmware updates for both PH and HD, we might get a fix in the coming versions. I was almost ready to pull the trigger on this but might wait a bit to see if any of the aforementioned issues are addressed.

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Re: Kermit mk III - coming soon

Post by Leverkusen » Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:35 am

I got anothe response from Scott now, saying that the last example sounded more like my module was malfunctioning and that his own module would come closer to what you would expect to hear. Unfortunately that part is left out in the official demo video, so it is not so easy to estimate what expected behaviour would be like in the end. I will order a replacement from my retailer and report back then.

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Re: Kermit mk III - coming soon

Post by witchonhorseback » Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:03 am

Leverkusen wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:02 pm
Leverkusen wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:37 am
One question to other users the internal modulation (57:40): I get unpleasant digital clicks when I use internal envelope modulation of oscillator amplitude, especially in unison mode. In the video though (from 1:01 on) he sets the oscillator to unison and it sounds quite good - in my rack I have to use an external VCA to get it right. Is this something that others also experience?
I think I got it - the amplitude control on all channels is broken. The issue also occurs with external CV, and when you manually turn the amplitude knob. There are steps and irregularities. The amplitude goes up first, then down again and then up again. Same thing when using an external CV offset dialed in via Maths channel 2/3. So no wonder it reacts clicky to envelope control. Strange that it did not get noticed before since it is on all channels. :hmm:
Whew, I thought I was losing my mind! I'm also getting lots of clicking and popping using the envelope mode on C and modulating amplitude of A and B in OSC mode, and yes, it's worse in unison. I'll update to 1.1 and see what happens. Got to buy a Pickit, these (Kermit and Stillson Hammer) are my first IME modules since the early Harvestman days.

Leverkusen, are you able to use the Kermit’s envelopes to control the external VCA, or do you need to also use an external envelope to avoid the clicks? Going to try both after work...

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Re: Kermit mk III - coming soon

Post by Leverkusen » Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:06 am

witchonhorseback wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:03 am
Leverkusen, are you able to use the Kermit’s envelopes to control the external VCA, or do you need to also use an external envelope to avoid the clicks? Going to try both after work...
It depends a bit. Generally it works much better to use an external VCA with Kermit's envelopes. They are quite usable when you keep in mind that it's still wavetable synthesis and has some character. The envelope waves with what looks like zero attack are quite clicky (personally I would look into waveedit if it is possible to change them to at least a short attack and see if it avoids the clicks) and retriggering also clicks quite a bit. But as said before, this is to be expected with a simple wavetable envelope implementation without fades. It also depends on the VCA a bit and is less pronounced with LPG's of course (actually sounds good there:). Kermit does not react to the trigger signals of the ER-101 - but gates do work. I tried different lengths with teletype and it seems that a trigger signal has to be at least 15 ms long for Kermit to start an envelope.

Then there seem to be some bugs within the wavebanks. At least my unit has the envelopes of bank 7 not aligned in phase. You have to shift some of them a minimal amount if you want them to start at zero but then others are not right anymore and have the zero attack click at the end. So morphing between them gets you more clicks because of misalignment. Also bank 7 contains the falling saw / linear decay envelope two times at the first and then at the fourth position. At shorter settings two envelopes in bank 6 (position 6 and 7) will switch into some kind of looping envelope mode and trigger multiple times, which is not ideal. :hmm:

Would be interesting to hear back from others if you are experiencing the same issues or if it is just my unit. We can share those findings with Scott then to facilitate firmware development and get it all work properly within the given framework.

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Re: Kermit mk III - coming soon

Post by witchonhorseback » Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:10 am

I actually stole a few minutes and was able to use the osc C envelope with the intellijel uVCAii to create clickless sequences. It really does seem to have something to do with the Kermit’s VCAs and their interaction with the internal envelopes. I’m hoping Scott can smooth this out with a firmware update! My pickit won’t be here til next week, though, so right now I can’t see if I can make it work in 1.1. Thank you!

Btw I really love the character of the Kermit 3 otherwise. Very fond of the audio oscilllators and intend to use the module mostly as a synth voice. It would be great if it eventually got to have a crude/lofi filter mode as well.

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Re: Kermit mk III - coming soon

Post by buzzbuzz » Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:57 pm

Pighood wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:02 pm
Anyone else notice the module "goes to sleep" after a few hours....tap indicator goes off and status lights of Osc C & D go glacial. No way to wake it up....just have to reboot.
Came here to ask the same question. This is happening every time I use it.

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Re: Kermit mk III - coming soon

Post by Grava_RB » Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:06 pm

Leverkusen wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:06 am
witchonhorseback wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:03 am
Leverkusen, are you able to use the Kermit’s envelopes to control the external VCA, or do you need to also use an external envelope to avoid the clicks? Going to try both after work...
It depends a bit. Generally it works much better to use an external VCA with Kermit's envelopes. They are quite usable when you keep in mind that it's still wavetable synthesis and has some character. The envelope waves with what looks like zero attack are quite clicky (personally I would look into waveedit if it is possible to change them to at least a short attack and see if it avoids the clicks) and retriggering also clicks quite a bit. But as said before, this is to be expected with a simple wavetable envelope implementation without fades. It also depends on the VCA a bit and is less pronounced with LPG's of course (actually sounds good there:). Kermit does not react to the trigger signals of the ER-101 - but gates do work. I tried different lengths with teletype and it seems that a trigger signal has to be at least 15 ms long for Kermit to start an envelope.

Then there seem to be some bugs within the wavebanks. At least my unit has the envelopes of bank 7 not aligned in phase. You have to shift some of them a minimal amount if you want them to start at zero but then others are not right anymore and have the zero attack click at the end. So morphing between them gets you more clicks because of misalignment. Also bank 7 contains the falling saw / linear decay envelope two times at the first and then at the fourth position. At shorter settings two envelopes in bank 6 (position 6 and 7) will switch into some kind of looping envelope mode and trigger multiple times, which is not ideal. :hmm:

Would be interesting to hear back from others if you are experiencing the same issues or if it is just my unit. We can share those findings with Scott then to facilitate firmware development and get it all work properly within the given framework.
Hi,

For what I have read, I have also experienced:
- Clicks/Pops at the end of envelope cycles when used as internal VCA for kermit oscillator.
- 0-6V envelopes not working when used as internal modulation for oscillator frequency.
- I believe also the not-in-phase envelope wavebank 7, but have to check.

The other things I have not tested yet!

On a more positive note: gotta say that the code scan oscillator sounds amazing! Harsh & crunchy :sb:

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Re: Kermit mk III - coming soon

Post by autopoiesis » Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:24 am

buzzbuzz wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:57 pm
Pighood wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:02 pm
Anyone else notice the module "goes to sleep" after a few hours....tap indicator goes off and status lights of Osc C & D go glacial. No way to wake it up....just have to reboot.
Came here to ask the same question. This is happening every time I use it.
:doh:

i hope Scott is able to sort this module out. I want to love it. I do not want to feel like its 420€ tag is wildly out of step with its market readiness.

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Re: Kermit mk III - coming soon

Post by temaniak » Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:36 am

I think you want too much from a module that is positioned primarily as a modulator. As an oscillator, it is positioned as lo-fi and all these glitches and noises are a feature of its sound. I really like the crackles on the Oscillators C and D. If you pass that through BP filter, you can get some vinyl-like sounds.The only thing that bad for me, is the stepwise work of the amplitude. I hope that will fixed this in the coming firmware updates.
As modulator this module is awesome. And 4 channels of modulation with randoms, LFOs, envelopes with internal modulation matrix, VCA and other for 400$... I don't think that very expensive for this.
I hope, that Scott will fix trouble with amplitude. And if he fix oscillators, it will be good too. But I think, that need to leave the choose between the lo-fi mode with glitches/crackles and clean sound.

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Re: Kermit mk III - coming soon

Post by witchonhorseback » Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:27 am

temaniak wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:36 am
I think you want too much from a module that is positioned primarily as a modulator. As an oscillator, it is positioned as lo-fi and all these glitches and noises are a feature of its sound. I really like the crackles on the Oscillators C and D. If you pass that through BP filter, you can get some vinyl-like sounds.The only thing that bad for me, is the stepwise work of the amplitude. I hope that will fixed this in the coming firmware updates.
As modulator this module is awesome. And 4 channels of modulation with randoms, LFOs, envelopes with internal modulation matrix, VCA and other for 400$... I don't think that very expensive for this.
I hope, that Scott will fix trouble with amplitude. And if he fix oscillators, it will be good too. But I think, that need to leave the choose between the lo-fi mode with glitches/crackles and clean sound.
I agree that it's a great module—I have no complaints about the price and think it's good value for the money. Nothing else sounds like those audio oscillators, either—they're really distinctive, and yes, code scan is bananas. Using external envelopes is no problem, either, and the LFOs are amazingly versatile. But I would love to have the internal xmod working reliably and I suspect Scott would too...

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Re: Kermit mk III - coming soon

Post by gloamtrotter » Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:42 am

buzzbuzz wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:57 pm
Pighood wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:02 pm
Anyone else notice the module "goes to sleep" after a few hours....tap indicator goes off and status lights of Osc C & D go glacial. No way to wake it up....just have to reboot.
Came here to ask the same question. This is happening every time I use it.
Same thing happens to me if i leave my rack on overnight. I emailed him and he said it sounds like a firmware issue. I haven’t tried updating yet because i don’t have a pickit3 device, but i did buy the module after the latest firmware release.

For now i’ve moved it into a smaller rack that doesn’t have any modules that need presets to be saved so i can stop accidentally losing my sequences when i power cycle :doh:

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Re: Kermit mk III - coming soon

Post by temaniak » Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:40 am

witchonhorseback wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:27 am
temaniak wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:36 am
I think you want too much from a module that is positioned primarily as a modulator. As an oscillator, it is positioned as lo-fi and all these glitches and noises are a feature of its sound. I really like the crackles on the Oscillators C and D. If you pass that through BP filter, you can get some vinyl-like sounds.The only thing that bad for me, is the stepwise work of the amplitude. I hope that will fixed this in the coming firmware updates.
As modulator this module is awesome. And 4 channels of modulation with randoms, LFOs, envelopes with internal modulation matrix, VCA and other for 400$... I don't think that very expensive for this.
I hope, that Scott will fix trouble with amplitude. And if he fix oscillators, it will be good too. But I think, that need to leave the choose between the lo-fi mode with glitches/crackles and clean sound.
I agree that it's a great module—I have no complaints about the price and think it's good value for the money. Nothing else sounds like those audio oscillators, either—they're really distinctive, and yes, code scan is bananas. Using external envelopes is no problem, either, and the LFOs are amazingly versatile. But I would love to have the internal xmod working reliably and I suspect Scott would too...
Yep, good work of xmod and ampllitude is all i need :) But my xmod works fine. Can you tell me, what i need for test to find errors in xmod?

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Re: Kermit mk III - coming soon

Post by jwm » Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:00 am

gloamtrotter wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:42 am
buzzbuzz wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:57 pm
Pighood wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:02 pm
Anyone else notice the module "goes to sleep" after a few hours....tap indicator goes off and status lights of Osc C & D go glacial. No way to wake it up....just have to reboot.
Came here to ask the same question. This is happening every time I use it.
Same thing happens to me if i leave my rack on overnight. I emailed him and he said it sounds like a firmware issue. I haven’t tried updating yet because i don’t have a pickit3 device, but i did buy the module after the latest firmware release.

For now i’ve moved it into a smaller rack that doesn’t have any modules that need presets to be saved so i can stop accidentally losing my sequences when i power cycle :doh:
you guys leave your rigs on all night?! i've not encountered this, but also haven't had anything powered up that long to notice i suppose...

just thinking outloud — re: testing, yeah i think if people can leave very very specific notes (as specific as possible, and use the IME nomenclature) for ways to replicate things that would be best... not everyone has modules with things like variable pulse width and things like that, so the more generic the better in terms of using external modules to test with..

we are all on the road to a better and more badass kermie :party:

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Re: Kermit mk III - coming soon

Post by buzzbuzz » Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:08 pm

autopoiesis wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:24 am

:doh:

i hope Scott is able to sort this module out. I want to love it. I do not want to feel like its 420€ tag is wildly out of step with its market readiness.
I certainly don't feel this way, it is a fantastic module and I am sure a firmware update will sort it out. Overall it is not a deal breaker for me by any means
gloamtrotter wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:42 am

Same thing happens to me if i leave my rack on overnight. I emailed him and he said it sounds like a firmware issue. I haven’t tried updating yet because i don’t have a pickit3 device, but i did buy the module after the latest firmware release.

For now i’ve moved it into a smaller rack that doesn’t have any modules that need presets to be saved so i can stop accidentally losing my sequences when i power cycle :doh:
I can confirm that this sleepiness is happening with the v 1.1 firmware.

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Re: Kermit mk III - coming soon

Post by gloamtrotter » Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:48 pm

I received another email from Scott yesterday saying that he has been working on it and that a fix is looking promising soon!

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Re: Kermit mk III - coming soon

Post by buzzbuzz » Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:32 pm

gloamtrotter wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:48 pm
I received another email from Scott yesterday saying that he has been working on it and that a fix is looking promising soon!
Excellent! Thank you for the update!

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Re: Kermit mk III - coming soon

Post by gloamtrotter » Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:47 pm

No problem, Scott seems like a great dude. Gonna have to look into getting another Industrial Music Electronics module in the near future.

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Re: Kermit mk III - coming soon

Post by witchonhorseback » Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:28 am

gloamtrotter wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:48 pm
I received another email from Scott yesterday saying that he has been working on it and that a fix is looking promising soon!
Excellent! Thank you for this.

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Re: Kermit mk III - coming soon

Post by robotopsy » Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:43 pm

I tried to make a chart of the button configuration for the parameter settings.
Attachments
Kermit MKIII_Parameter adjustments.pdf
KERMIT MKIII
(43.78 KiB) Downloaded 97 times

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Re: Kermit mk III - coming soon

Post by daphnid » Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:51 pm

robotopsy wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:43 pm
I tried to make a chart of the button configuration for the parameter settings.
Thanks, got one on the way I'll print this out. Bummed to hear about the bugs, guess I'll have to pony up for a Pickit :despair:

Still stoked for the delivery. As a longtime digital enthusiast (I love old samplers, fm synths and was a first gen Machinedrum adopter) Harvestman has always been on my radar despite just getting into eurorack this past February. My first IME poduct :miley:

What are y'all using this for more, an oscillator or for external modulation? Hoping it's a nice contrast to the Shapeshifter. They seem like a chiral pair. The Kermit being the left handed one of course.

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Re: Kermit mk III - coming soon

Post by robotopsy » Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:24 pm

I like it for random glitch ratcheting noises and clean pads
or modulation source

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Re: Kermit mk III - coming soon

Post by witchonhorseback » Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:30 am

robotopsy wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:43 pm
I tried to make a chart of the button configuration for the parameter settings.
Holy moses—I had started to make one, but this is much better than mine. Thank you so much.

Hey, FWIW, I am also sometimes getting loud clicks even using outboard envelopes, even very long, slow, gradual (like, >20sec) ones. It's very hard to reliably reproduce—it seems to be worse with certain waveforms (like the harmonic osc). It's not too hard to mitigate with careful calibration of bias, CV amount, etc. but it'd be great if these bumps could be smoothed out in the next update.

I've been using the 2hp ASDRs along with Stillson Hammer to create these long, intertwining ambient pads—and with C and D freed up I can subtly morph the waveforms. The character of this module is weird and wonderful...love it!

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Re: Kermit mk III - coming soon

Post by daphnid » Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:23 pm

robotopsy wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:43 pm
I tried to make a chart of the button configuration for the parameter settings.
Wow this really made my first few hours with this thing so much smoother. Thanks again.

LOTS of cryptic button combos but I love that they crammed this much into 12hp. Really enjoying it. I love the default wavetables and that I can import my own. I quickly put the E352 default banks in there last night. So much more inspiring for atmospherics than the ones I'm stuck with in the Shapeshifter which is quickly becoming just an FM bass module (which it's jaw droppingly good at).

The code scan mode is bonkers and the 3 flavors of bit rate reduction make me so happy, like having my Ensoniq EPS right inside my modular (although nothing sounds quite as good as an EPS).

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