Large components = fat sound?

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Re: Large components = fat sound?

Post by Pelsea » Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:10 pm

Research [url]https://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductor ... omic-scale [\url] suggests Ohm’s law Is valid at the quantum level. Does this mean a new format in the future?
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Re: Large components = fat sound?

Post by KSS » Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:25 pm

uRack! Nope, too big. ;( <--Is it possible to wink and frown at the same time? :hmm:

NanoRack! Patched with your handy scanning tunneling microscope.

This link from that site discusses another needed component of TinyRack:https://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductor ... transistor

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Re: Large components = fat sound?

Post by mskala » Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:12 pm

Pelsea wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:10 pm
Research [url]https://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductor ... omic-scale [\url] suggests Ohm’s law Is valid at the quantum level. Does this mean a new format in the future?
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Re: Large components = fat sound?

Post by EPTC » Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:13 pm

KSS wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:25 pm
needed component of TinyRack
Ha, the more things get small, the more they...!

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Re: Large components = fat sound?

Post by trentpmcd » Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:14 am

jorg wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:16 am
trentpmcd wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:53 am
This might be irrelevant, but... Watching videos the 5U/MU often do seem fatter than the Euro...
What if you were to listen to the videos without watching? Are you confident you'd reach the same conclusion? There's no rational reason that modules in one format would inherently sound different than modules in another format.
There is no reason they should sound different... except that people use them in different ways. Example: the other day I was listening to the radio and heard a song I had heard before but never really paid any attention to (I listen while driving). It started with a cliched Euro sound that played throughout. Next came in an Odyssey bass line. Later there was a 5U sequence that came in occasionally. The band was LCD Soundsystem, somebody I had heard of but never paid attention to. When I got home, I looked them up and watched a video of the band live. Yep, that Euro party was Euro, that 5U sequence was 5U and that Odyssey part was Odyssey. Could a 5U do that Euro part? Most likely. Euro do that 5U sequence? Of course. Anything else in the world do that Odyssey part? Never! :hihi:

Several years ago, when I first discovered the new modular, I was convinced I was going to get a Euro system, mostly because of space. I didn't consider 5U and spent many hours listening to music and started to design a system. I once accidentally hit a 5U video and the rest is history. Did the person on that video make sounds that would have been impossible on a Euro? No. But he did make music that was closer to my music and used sounds that were more what I was looking for. So I started mixing in 5U with my listening. Yes, occasionally I would hear someone on 5U doing very Euro sounding music or someone on Euro doing music usually heard on 5U, but those are the exceptions. Even people who own both seem to use each format for different things, and, yes, they often will use a specific format for the cliche things.

I don't know why people use one for some music and the other for other types. Interface? Different formats draw different people? The cliches are there so people follow the cliches (I play this type of music, I heard it on this format, so I buy this format - like me and 5U)? The other cliche, that it's an age thing that draws people to the different formats? Something else? I don't know, but I do know that people often do use Euro and 5U for different things, and, as I said, even people who own both.

Notice, I said "often". Never did I say in either post that there wasn't cross over, that some people didn't make big, fat Berlin music with Euro or that people didn't do more modern styles with 5U. But people often do use the formats in different ways. I never said that an STG Sea Devils Filter would be different in Euro than in 5U - they are the same filter. Nor did I say that Plaits or Clouds ported to 5U would sound different than in Euro. Again, they wouldn't. I said that someone coming in and listening to random videos could easily come out thinking 5U was all about big, fat sounds and east coast while Euro was all about crisper sounds and west coast. (I hate the terms "east" and "west" coast, but they are over used here). I said that this type of listening is most likely why there are some people convinced they do make different sounds. I never said it was impossible to replicate one with the other.

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Re: Large components = fat sound?

Post by Christopher Winkels » Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:26 am

If only I'd known this before I bought that AJH-based Eurorack system a couple of years ago. I guess my ears have deceived me into thinking such a puny module design could provide rich, fat sound. Ah well.

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Re: Large components = fat sound?

Post by jorg » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:03 am

Christopher Winkels wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:26 am
If only I'd known this before I bought that AJH-based Eurorack system a couple of years ago. I guess my ears have deceived me into thinking such a puny module design could provide rich, fat sound. Ah well.
:yay:

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Re: Large components = fat sound?

Post by jorg » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:05 am

I'm an East-Coast or central Europe afficionado; I do those styles with Euro. My little rack makes some pretty big sounds.

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Re: Large components = fat sound?

Post by KSS » Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:11 pm

trentpmcd wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:14 am
There is no reason they should sound different... except that people use them in different ways.
I don't know why people use one for some music and the other for other types. Interface? Different formats draw different people? The cliches are there so people follow the cliches (I play this type of music, I heard it on this format, so I buy this format - like me and 5U)? The other cliche, that it's an age thing that draws people to the different formats? Something else? I don't know, but I do know that people often do use Euro and 5U for different things, and, as I said, even people who own both.
Notice, I said "often". Never did I say in either post that there wasn't cross over, that some people didn't make big, fat Berlin music with Euro or that people didn't do more modern styles with 5U. But people often do use the formats in different ways.
One of the best posts on the subject I've ever seen. :yay:

People try to say the sound is behind the panel. Saying that if the circuit is the same, then the module is the same. But that's not true.

Because the panel -its size, layout, labels, format, everything about it- is as much a part of the sound as the circuit behind it.

Well written, well said, trentpmcd :tu:

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Re: Large components = fat sound?

Post by jorg » Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:36 am

KSS wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:11 pm
...the panel -its size, layout, labels, format, everything about it- is as much a part of the sound as the circuit behind it.
:hihi:

Are you saying ergonomics has an effect on playing/patching style? Maybe. But that's a bit of a stretch, if you're comparing modules with similar circuits behind the panel. Certainly the panel has no direct effect on the sound.

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Re: Large components = fat sound?

Post by mskala » Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:21 am

jorg wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:36 am
Certainly the panel has no direct effect on the sound.
It does, but the size of hammer you use to hit it has a greater effect.
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Re: Large components = fat sound?

Post by ari ellis » Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:31 am

mskala wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:21 am
jorg wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:36 am
Certainly the panel has no direct effect on the sound.
It does, but the size of hammer you use to hit it has a greater effect.
I also find the finish of the panel matters a lot --- silkscreening muffles the tone, whereas metalphoto has a more open quality, like a nitrocellulose lacquer on an old electric guitar.

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Re: Large components = fat sound?

Post by jorg » Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:51 am

ari ellis wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:31 am
I also find the finish of the panel matters a lot --- silkscreening muffles the tone, whereas metalphoto has a more open quality, like a nitrocellulose lacquer on an old electric guitar.
If you turn up the volume loud enough to rattle the panels, anodized ones make a more pleasing tone.

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Re: Large components = fat sound?

Post by Pelsea » Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:11 pm

One place I look for big components is passive filters like the old Altec or Langevins. The coils in those were massive to work in the audio range. Not to mention the Moog fixed filter bank of course. Those things all had a unique sound, probably 5% distortion. New equivalents are precise, but boring.
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Re: Large components = fat sound?

Post by Shledge » Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:18 pm

Ergonomics is one thing that is demonstrably better on 5U. Inherent audio quality advantage? Ehhh... Too many idiots with golden ears out there.

If it sounds "fat", it's more down to the choice of components and circuit design. 5U modules tend to emphasise on cloning vintage moog modulars, so naturally they will be made to emulate the sound too, while Eurorack emphasises esoteric, weird modules. Doesn't mean Eurorack can't have "fat" modules though, in fact plenty exist eg. Minimod modules, it just means it's not the main thing that market wants.

People also talk of voltage - only advantage here is headroom. Plenty of decently fat synths out there are between 9-12v. The orginal moog modular wasn't even 15v!

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Re: Large components = fat sound?

Post by cornutt » Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:04 pm

steffengrondahl wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:29 am


1/4 inch jack (phone) connectors are the best, as they alows big a fat sounds to flow thru them. Thats why Moog modular and it's modern MU and MOTM alternatives sound big and fat.
My next modular will exclusively use these:

Image

It will be three stories tall and 30 feet wide. I'll use a cherry picker to patch it.
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Re: Large components = fat sound?

Post by KSS » Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:17 pm

jorg wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:36 am
Are you saying ergonomics has an effect on playing/patching style? Maybe. But that's a bit of a stretch, if you're comparing modules with similar circuits behind the panel. Certainly the panel has no direct effect on the sound.
Absolutely I'm saying that But not only ergonomics. Applied ergonomics maybe. And its not a stretch. At all. Here's an example. You're probably familiar with a moog 904 low pass ladder filter? In it's original panel there are three control inputs and three ranges. Aion wisely copied this in their clone, as did Behringer.

There are plenty of other moog ladder filter clones with one wide range and only one control input. Are you telling me the two modules will be patched the same? Approached the same way? Let me ask you this. How are you going to feed your single control input moog ladder a KBD V/oct and a doubled additonal modulation control?

Yeah, I didn't think so. Even if you have a module with a gain of two to plug into the backside of your V-oct stackcable -maybe you prefer a mult? What's the *real* likelihood you're going to do this, compared to the person usng the three control inputs module.

Since this thread has taken a silly turn I'll clarify -again- that the available panel choices, their location, their labeling Absolutely *does* play a role in the sounds one creates with it. Because you are led by them toward what's easy given their number, position, and clarity of labeling.

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Re: Large components = fat sound?

Post by EPTC » Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:31 pm

cornutt wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:04 pm

My next modular will exclusively use these:

Image
(Laughs) F-ck that puny shit.

Entire new system is going to be based on Zytel 801's:

Image

60 Amp, 3Y-Phase Zytel 801 Nylon Watertight Pin and Sleeve Plug, Color: Blue!

Bargain at $442.00 per connector — Fattest sound possible.
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Re: Large components = fat sound?

Post by jorg » Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:14 am

KSS wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:17 pm
... Applied ergonomics ...
There are plenty of other moog ladder filter clones with one wide range and only one control input. Are you telling me the two modules will be patched the same?...
No of course not but what you're describing is a functional difference, beyond ergonomics.

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Re: Large components = fat sound?

Post by tehyar » Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:09 pm

"Fat" is an oppressive sound standard. <burns speakers>

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Re: Large components = fat sound?

Post by KSS » Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:44 pm

@Jorg
I said the panel makes a difference. Clearly adding that its choices of what is present and what is not in addition to other factors of its design influenced how it is patched and therefore the results achieved directly reflected the panel as much as the electronics behind it.

The 'functional difference' terminolgy you're now trying to use to make your case, was there from the start. In the circuit itself. Adding an input -or not- is a panel design choice. Fact of which can be read and seen here in multiple threads where a desgner says that such and such jack or feature was left off due to panel considerations. Citing everything from size, placement, cost, and appearance to simple personal choice.

Showing further that the choice was not a limitation of the circuit, but of the panel. As I have been saying all along.

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Re: Large components = fat sound?

Post by cornutt » Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:04 pm

EPTC wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:31 pm


Entire new system is going to be based on Zytel 801's:

60 Amp, 3Y-Phase Zytel 801 Nylon Watertight Pin and Sleeve Plug, Color: Blue!

Bargain at $442.00 per connector — Fattest sound possible.
Lol, maybe I'll just use steel I-beams. All patch connections will be welded. :yay:
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Re: Large components = fat sound?

Post by Sinamsis » Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:13 pm

To clarify one thing, even though I feel like most have agreed this is mostly nonsense, this claim is comparing through hole vs surface mount components right?

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Re: Large components = fat sound?

Post by mskala » Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:22 pm

I don't think so. The original quote just said "larger."
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Re: Large components = fat sound?

Post by hamildad » Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:39 am

it's almost as if a shop selling 5U, needs to appeal to a new market of Modular synth fans and justify the higher cost in terms they would understand, bearing in mind, very few will be able to spend any hands on time with a large format modular.

we can go back to the silliness now, but 74 posts on a bit of marketing nonsense, when maybe some are treating it more like a paper published in a peer reviewed journal. (Modular synthesis approaches, May 2020, pp124-132)
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