A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

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tioJim
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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by tioJim » Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:51 pm

Nelson Baboon wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:12 pm
the smt thing
smt means 'surface mount technology'

it's tiny components without legs basically!

they're soldered TO the board with stubby pads rather than having long legs that pass through holes in the board (thru hole)

not only do they allow smaller boards but it's much easier to automate manufacture with them

the spools are reels of components, it's all a bit skynet if you ask me :mrgreen:


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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by Lokua » Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:29 pm

revtor wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:01 am
RickKleffel wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:13 pm
Which sequencers allow you to start with a blank pattern, record tracks, then copy the pattern to another location, [all while playing], then switch to the second [copied] version and transpose tracks and add new parts, then chain or set up in a song?
MidiboxSeq. With 8 DIN outs plus usb midi out.
But “record tracks” can mean a couple different things...
I'm surprised there isn't more talk about this sequencer. It has many years of development behind it and appears to be a top contender. I have a friend who built one and has been standing by it for years. There is one thread about it here on muffs that's mostly people talking about how cult-like the "community" is and very little talk about it's capabilities, which are super deep. 8 din and expandable to 8CV plus something like 64 tigger outs!?

Edit:
I mean LOOK at this thing :woah:
https://www.midiphy.com/en/mbseq-v4-/

To get a basic idea of how it works:
http://wiki.midibox.org/doku.php?id=mid ... uide:start

Still really unsure if I'd like the workflow or not. The Banks, Groups, Patterns, Tracks structure it uses is a bit confusing.

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by Nelson Baboon » Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:53 pm

Lokua wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:29 pm
revtor wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:01 am
RickKleffel wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:13 pm
Which sequencers allow you to start with a blank pattern, record tracks, then copy the pattern to another location, [all while playing], then switch to the second [copied] version and transpose tracks and add new parts, then chain or set up in a song?
MidiboxSeq. With 8 DIN outs plus usb midi out.
But “record tracks” can mean a couple different things...
I'm surprised there isn't more talk about this sequencer. It has many years of development behind it and appears to be a top contender. I have a friend who built one and has been standing by it for years. There is one thread about it here on muffs that's mostly people talking about how cult-like the "community" is and very little talk about it's capabilities, which are super deep. 8 din and expandable to 8CV plus something like 64 tigger outs!?

Edit:
I mean LOOK at this thing :woah:
https://www.midiphy.com/en/mbseq-v4-/

To get a basic idea of how it works:
http://wiki.midibox.org/doku.php?id=mid ... uide:start

Still really unsure if I'd like the workflow or not. The Banks, Groups, Patterns, Tracks structure it uses is a bit confusing.
I've seen plenty of talk about it. For years, the company really discouraged builders to sell them. They ridiculed you if you professed a reticence to embark on their DIY product. they've changed their policy, obviously, but it's still a situation where i believe that, unless you have excellent DIY skills, you have to contact people on their list and then ask them to build you one, negotiate a price, etc.

it's a nice sequencer, probably most like the cirklon than others. as i recall it exceeds the cirklon in some ways, and is not as good in others. I remember as being big and kind of clunky. For my 'simple' sequencing needs, I'd take the schrittmacher, but i would consider getting a midibox again.

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by Voltcontrol » Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:59 pm

Lokua wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:29 pm
revtor wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:01 am
RickKleffel wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:13 pm
Which sequencers allow you to start with a blank pattern, record tracks, then copy the pattern to another location, [all while playing], then switch to the second [copied] version and transpose tracks and add new parts, then chain or set up in a song?
MidiboxSeq. With 8 DIN outs plus usb midi out.
But “record tracks” can mean a couple different things...
I'm surprised there isn't more talk about this sequencer. It has many years of development behind it and appears to be a top contender. I have a friend who built one and has been standing by it for years. There is one thread about it here on muffs that's mostly people talking about how cult-like the "community" is and very little talk about it's capabilities, which are super deep. 8 din and expandable to 8CV plus something like 64 tigger outs!?

Edit:
I mean LOOK at this thing :woah:
https://www.midiphy.com/en/mbseq-v4-/

To get a basic idea of how it works:
http://wiki.midibox.org/doku.php?id=mid ... uide:start

Still really unsure if I'd like the workflow or not. The Banks, Groups, Patterns, Tracks structure it uses is a bit confusing.
Damn. Holy fuck. Daaaaamn. This thing should be one of the most discussed items on Muffs.
This is a thread on it: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=233644&start=25

I especially like the Midiphy kit version.
They should sell built versions, shame that the project owner does not allow this.

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by revtor » Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:28 pm

The only unorthodox thing about the MidiBox track structure is that tracks are gathered into sets of 4 called a group. Tracks 1-4 make group 1, tracks 5-8 make group 2, tracks 9-12 make group 3 and tracks 13-16 make group 4.
With the Midiphy hardware’s bottom row of buttons every track can be selected with a single button press as opposed to the previous “official” versions of the MbSeq.
A Group of tracks (aka a pattern) comes into play when you’re stringing patterns together in song mode. So switching a pattern switches 4 tracks. Maybe not ultimately as flexible as keeping all 16 tracks fully independent, but this “limitation” encourages me to be a bit more organized ahead of time as to what’s going on what track. Other than song mode, the whole “group of tracks” things never really comes into play.

I’ve been meaning to do a demo video for this thing. I’ll throw it on YouTube if I get around to it.
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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by Nelson Baboon » Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:31 pm

thanks for the explanation...I actually have a 'musician's' view of some of this stuff. I vaguely know what you told me, but it is pretty meaningless to me. I can repeat some of the terms (at least for a few minutes after I read about it), but I think that someone would really need some diy experience with this stuff to be able to talk about it comfortably. Like I hear talking about 'through hole' vs smt, and insisting that one is better than the other, but fuck if I have any opinion on it.
tioJim wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:51 pm
Nelson Baboon wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:12 pm
the smt thing
smt means 'surface mount technology'

it's tiny components without legs basically!

they're soldered TO the board with stubby pads rather than having long legs that pass through holes in the board (thru hole)

not only do they allow smaller boards but it's much easier to automate manufacture with them

the spools are reels of components, it's all a bit skynet if you ask me :mrgreen:


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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by Nelson Baboon » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:17 pm

Voltcontrol wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:59 pm
Lokua wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:29 pm
revtor wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:01 am
RickKleffel wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:13 pm
Which sequencers allow you to start with a blank pattern, record tracks, then copy the pattern to another location, [all while playing], then switch to the second [copied] version and transpose tracks and add new parts, then chain or set up in a song?
MidiboxSeq. With 8 DIN outs plus usb midi out.
But “record tracks” can mean a couple different things...
I'm surprised there isn't more talk about this sequencer. It has many years of development behind it and appears to be a top contender. I have a friend who built one and has been standing by it for years. There is one thread about it here on muffs that's mostly people talking about how cult-like the "community" is and very little talk about it's capabilities, which are super deep. 8 din and expandable to 8CV plus something like 64 tigger outs!?

Edit:
I mean LOOK at this thing :woah:
https://www.midiphy.com/en/mbseq-v4-/

To get a basic idea of how it works:
http://wiki.midibox.org/doku.php?id=mid ... uide:start

Still really unsure if I'd like the workflow or not. The Banks, Groups, Patterns, Tracks structure it uses is a bit confusing.
Damn. Holy fuck. Daaaaamn. This thing should be one of the most discussed items on Muffs.
This is a thread on it: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=233644&start=25

I especially like the Midiphy kit version.
They should sell built versions, shame that the project owner does not allow this.

Image
On the midiphy site they list several "trusted builders" who they allow to build these and sell them to you.

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tioJim
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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by tioJim » Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:53 am

Nelson Baboon wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:31 pm
thanks for the explanation...I actually have a 'musician's' view of some of this stuff. I vaguely know what you told me, but it is pretty meaningless to me. I can repeat some of the terms (at least for a few minutes after I read about it), but I think that someone would really need some diy experience with this stuff to be able to talk about it comfortably. Like I hear talking about 'through hole' vs smt, and insisting that one is better than the other, but fuck if I have any opinion on it.
haha, nice, i like your style :tu:

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by latigid on » Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:20 am

Nelson Baboon wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:17 pm
On the midiphy site they list several "trusted builders" who they allow to build these and sell them to you.
In theory, anyone you know and trust can build a SEQ v4+ for you. We just happen to know a few people whom we vouch for. In saying that, we also know of several people who built a sequencer as their very first DIY. The SMT is not as scary as you think it is. You have a walkthrough video that shows each step in detail.

For less regimented step sequencers the LoopA might be more suitable, also smaller and cheaper :). With the latest firmware it has a step recording mode. Here's an example jam by Adrian:


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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by strettara » Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:52 am

Nelson Baboon wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:31 pm
Like I hear talking about 'through hole' vs smt, and insisting that one is better than the other, but fuck if I have any opinion on it.
I don't believe there's actually any difference, is there? Or maybe i'm wrong. There's a common misconception - which I would probably hold myself if i hand't seen it scoffed at by the experts - that the phatness and analogue goodness of ancient synth equipment is due to the fat components they used, but I believe it isn't a real thing at all.

BTW that pick and place robot is just amazing.
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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by Red Electric Rainbow » Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:58 am

latigid on wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:20 am
In theory, anyone you know and trust can build a SEQ v4+ for you. We just happen to know a few people whom we vouch for.
why not just make them in-house and distribute them that way?
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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by latigid on » Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:07 am

strettara wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:52 am
Nelson Baboon wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:31 pm
Like I hear talking about 'through hole' vs smt, and insisting that one is better than the other, but fuck if I have any opinion on it.
I don't believe there's actually any difference, is there? Or maybe i'm wrong. There's a common misconception - which I would probably hold myself if i hand't seen it scoffed at by the experts - that the phatness and analogue goodness of ancient synth equipment is due to the fat components they used, but I believe it isn't a real thing at all.

BTW that pick and place robot is just amazing.
THT might be more robust, for example if you want to send a rocket to the moon and have to deal with g-force and vibrations. SMT parts have less distance to the actual component so perform (subjectively) better in terms of inductance etc.



Red Electric Rainbow wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:58 am
latigid on wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:20 am
In theory, anyone you know and trust can build a SEQ v4+ for you. We just happen to know a few people whom we vouch for.
why not just make them in-house and distribute them that way?
We could do that! But at the moment we are too busy with day jobs and designing fun new things :).


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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by revtor » Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:13 am

Nelson Baboon wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:02 am
Why was building and selling one of these once considered a moral transgression?
2c/ As far as I know, and I’m not familiar with the actual dates of these changes, originally this midi box project was open source but strictly non-commercial. So you could build one for yourself and that was it. You could not become a builder and make these for sale, and therefore make a bunch of money off it. That was the original concept.
I do not know any of the details of what certain midibox forum members said to whoever else I was not really paying much attention, as we all know certain people take things a bit personally and interpretations of the loose “contract” varied pretty widely.
At some point TK said yeah, you can make up to 10 a year and sell them. And you could create commercial versions of products to support the TK software as long as you got approval from the man. Sammich, Wilba, Midiphy, these are “official versions” that iirc follow this path. So buy a couple of these awesome kits, make one for yourself, make one or two for some other people, make some cash, make some awesome techno.
/2c
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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by Nelson Baboon » Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:22 am

ok - someone above said that anyone can build one for you...and i infer that would mean charging for one's time = making money off of it.

My experience was that I bought one off of ebay, and found out afterwards that it was not 'legal' to sell them without permission. They wanted me to participate in a lawsuit against the seller (who had dealt with me nicely and fairly) and I declined. I was threatened with a subpoena, and all in all, it was not a good experience.

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by 3hands » Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:35 am

Nelson Baboon wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:22 am
ok - someone above said that anyone can build one for you...and i infer that would mean charging for one's time = making money off of it.

My experience was that I bought one off of ebay, and found out afterwards that it was not 'legal' to sell them without permission. They wanted me to participate in a lawsuit against the seller (who had dealt with me nicely and fairly) and I declined. I was threatened with a subpoena, and all in all, it was not a good experience.

Hmm... that sort of information is very good to know. Thanks for getting this out there.
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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by hawkeye » Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:57 am

Hmm... that sort of information is very good to know. Thanks for getting this out there.
But that information does not match reality, at least in 2020. While the license had been stricer earlier on, you can of course do what you want with a MIDIbox that you own. SEQ v4+s have been sold on ebay, reverb.com and have and can be built and freely sold.

There had been problems with unlicensed commercial clones in the last decade, but it's something completely else if you do this on a small scale (10 units/year) or on a personal basi, e.g. building a second unit for a friend. See the license on midibox.org.

The whole "on the forums only" selling thing was an encouragement, not a requirement - to use the local midibox forums rather than anonymous ebay, so that the best level of support to users could be given.

Have a nice sunday and best regards,
Peter from midibox.org and midiphy.com

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by Nelson Baboon » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:01 am

hawkeye wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:57 am
Hmm... that sort of information is very good to know. Thanks for getting this out there.
But that information does not match reality, at least in 2020. While the license had been stricer earlier on, you can of course do what you want with a MIDIbox that you own. SEQ v4+s have been sold on ebay, reverb.com and have and can be built and freely sold.

There had been problems with unlicensed commercial clones in the last decade, but it's something completely else if you do this on a small scale (10 units/year) or on a personal basi, e.g. building a second unit for a friend. See the license on midibox.org.

The whole "on the forums only" selling thing was an encouragement, not a requirement - to use the local midibox forums rather than anonymous ebay, so that the best level of support to users could be given.

Have a nice sunday and best regards,
Peter from midibox.org and midiphy.com
LOL - so is that an apology?

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by hawkeye » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:20 am

Nelson Baboon wrote: LOL - so is that an apology?
Sorry, i don't seem to know you, as an introduction - my name is Peter, i help out on the midibox forums and together with latigid on operate midiphy.com. We create kits and documentation and encourage people to build those sequencers. So my question: what have i done wrong, for what should i apologize?

Have a nice Sunday!
Many greets,
Peter

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by latigid on » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:26 am

Peter joined the midibox forum about two years after this ...ahem... "discussion" took place, so he's not the one who should apologise :).

In the intervening 12, almost 13 years, things are quite different! Many of the people Nelson Baboon interacted with are no longer part of that community. It's for the most part very friendly and supportive.

Anyway, it's currently the best time to build (or commission) a sequencer.

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by Nelson Baboon » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:27 am

hawkeye wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:20 am
Nelson Baboon wrote: LOL - so is that an apology?
Sorry, i don't seem to know you, as an introduction - my name is Peter, i help out on the midibox forums and together with latigid on operate midiphy.com. We create kits and documentation and encourage people to build those sequencers. So my question: what have i done wrong, for what should i apologize?

Have a nice Sunday!
Many greets,
Peter
I don't want to derail this thread completely, so I will pm you.

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by hawkeye » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:34 am

I don't want to derail this thread completely, so I will pm you.
PM received let's can it.
I think what has happened has happend a long time ago 12+ years and it's important to notice that MIDIbox has changed.
We encourage newbies to build SEQ v4+ and help anyone with trouble and are proud to say that every single SEQ v4+ started was finished, there were even complete newbies building one - see this support thread:

http://midibox.org/forums/topic/20993-t ... hy-seq-v4/

Many greets,
Peter
Last edited by hawkeye on Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by Nelson Baboon » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:48 am

hawkeye wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:34 am
I don't want to derail this thread completely, so I will pm you.
Not necessary, please tell everyone, it's popcorn time! What did i do that needs an apology?

If you are critizising anything that MIDIbox did, even if i did not have the authority to make any of their decisions, i will stand behind them. Thorsten spent half of his lifetime creating a wonderful sequencer engine, hardware and software, for free, all documented and open source. Yes, i built my first SEQ V4 back in 2010 out of wires and scrap i found in the trashbin, and people could still do that today.

So, what is the issue here?

Many greets,
Peter
I pm'd you. I viewed your comments as coming from the company. I hadn't realized that what happened there to me was before your time, and my comments were a bit sarcastic based on the fact that there seems to be some recognition (and see the post from the other midibox member) that the former strict attitude was not a good one.

If you feel that I should dredge this all out here, I can do it, but maybe in another thread or something?

And I'm not saying that 'people' can't build a midibox. I'm saying that I would not be able to, and I don't really feel like I have to defend this. There are others who do not feel comfortable embarking on diy projects, especially one as big as this.

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by hawkeye » Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:16 am

I pm'd you. I viewed your comments as coming from the company. I hadn't realized that what happened there to me was before your time, and my comments were a bit sarcastic based on the fact that there seems to be some recognition (and see the post from the other midibox member) that the former strict attitude was not a good one.
All good! It was indeed before my time. In short: we are trying to be the good guys and are trying to promote SDIY a bit, which gets more and more difficult with cheap (and sometimes even good :)) off-the-shelf hardware being available nowadays! Any kinds of forum wars or insults are not good. So as long as i have a saying on the midibox forums, i would intervene if any kinds of personal attacks are happening now.

Back to the sequencer discussion, sorry for the noise! :)

Were the new features of the midiphy LoopA already mentioned? :)


Many greets,
Peter

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by Nelson Baboon » Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:25 am

Any bad feelings I have towards midibox are now 'officially' over. I totally accept that things are different now. The people with whom I had the bad interactions now seem to be pretty much gone, and I actually had a good interaction at the time with Thorsten, the owner.

I'm a sequencer nut. These are great sequencers. I look forward to getting myself more in debt......
hawkeye wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:16 am
I pm'd you. I viewed your comments as coming from the company. I hadn't realized that what happened there to me was before your time, and my comments were a bit sarcastic based on the fact that there seems to be some recognition (and see the post from the other midibox member) that the former strict attitude was not a good one.
All good! It was indeed before my time. In short: we are trying to be the good guys and are trying to promote SDIY a bit, which gets more and more difficult with cheap (and sometimes even good :)) off-the-shelf hardware being available nowadays! Any kinds of forum wars or insults are not good. So as long as i have a saying on the midibox forums, i would intervene if any kinds of personal attacks are happening now.

Back to the sequencer discussion, sorry for the noise! :)

Were the new features of the midiphy LoopA already mentioned? :)


Many greets,
Peter

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