A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

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chaocrator
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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by chaocrator » Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:33 am

blakeAlbion wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:11 pm
What's strange to me is this notion that if a synth is multitimbral but lacks audio outputs for each voice, it's no good.
totally agree.
blakeAlbion wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:11 pm
The Novation Circuit (I have one and I do enjoy it) is considered to be an "award-winning breakthrough" product for its sequencer. It is not.
it definitely is. because it has the best user interface ever, period.
blakeAlbion wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:11 pm
Hardware sequencers in 2020 must be a feature bundled with a sampler, in the form of a "workstation".
well, it can be bundled wit a multitimbral synth (MC-707, which, btw, has up to 3 stereo pairs of audio output).
standalone sequencers also exist (Cirklon, Pyramid).

what i really hate in modern sequencers is way too limited number of physical MIDI Out ports.
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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by 6667 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:36 pm

anyone bringing cirklon into the discussion as a triumph of hardware in the sequencer arena should realize its completely and utterly meaningless to anyone who does not already have a cirklon. the waitlist of 18 months is an eternity in the context of learning an instrument/writing music. i've been on the waiting list since the beginning of covid as I believe its really the only remotely competitive hardware contender to daws w/r/t sequencing, but in my mind it pretty much doesn't exist and i've continued to sequence itb in the meantime.

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by JankySwitch » Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:09 am

6667 wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:36 pm
waitlist of 18 months
That's a bit optimistic.

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by Blairio » Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:57 am

chaocrator wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:33 am
blakeAlbion wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:11 pm
What's strange to me is this notion that if a synth is multitimbral but lacks audio outputs for each voice, it's no good.
totally agree.
blakeAlbion wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:11 pm
The Novation Circuit (I have one and I do enjoy it) is considered to be an "award-winning breakthrough" product for its sequencer. It is not.
it definitely is. because it has the best user interface ever, period.
blakeAlbion wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:11 pm
Hardware sequencers in 2020 must be a feature bundled with a sampler, in the form of a "workstation".
well, it can be bundled wit a multitimbral synth (MC-707, which, btw, has up to 3 stereo pairs of audio output).
standalone sequencers also exist (Cirklon, Pyramid).

what i really hate in modern sequencers is way too limited number of physical MIDI Out ports.
Midi thru boxes are easy enough to come by, such as those from Midi Solutions. For 'serious' sequencers I would like to see more than 16 addressable midi channels, combined with at least two midi ourputs.. So midi out A addresses channels 1 - 16 from tracks 1 - 16 midi out B addresses channels 1 - 16 from tracks 17 - 32, and so on.

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by JankySwitch » Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:58 am

The Pyramid has 2 midi out din ports and usb midi, so you can address 48 midi channels + one cv channel.

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by Carrousel » Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:07 am

6667 wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:36 pm
anyone bringing cirklon into the discussion as a triumph of hardware in the sequencer arena should realize its completely and utterly meaningless to anyone who does not already have a cirklon. the waitlist of 18 months is an eternity in the context of learning an instrument/writing music. i've been on the waiting list since the beginning of covid as I believe its really the only remotely competitive hardware contender to daws w/r/t sequencing, but in my mind it pretty much doesn't exist and i've continued to sequence itb in the meantime.

It’s not that long at all. I waited around 18months myself. Just use other sequencers in the meantime like you say, it’s no big deal.
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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by ahmo » Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:15 am

Sorry, the original statement about their not being any multitimbral synthesizers was by Flatheart, not Slumberjack, my apologies Slumberjack.

Also, multitimbral without individual outs is better thwn no multitimbrality, not sure anyone said it was ‘no good’ but for thise using multitimbrality, multiouts is a benefit, and not having them is a limitation, which will vary with esch user as to how important it is.

It’s nice to have the option.

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by Nelson Baboon » Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:18 am

JankySwitch wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:58 am
The Pyramid has 2 midi out din ports and usb midi, so you can address 48 midi channels + one cv channel.
hmmm - my comments weren't posted. Please forgive if this turns out to be a duplicate....

I had assumed that the usb and the midi ports were the same - just different hardware, so i had thought 32 midi channels. This is certainly the case with other midi devices that I have....hope you're right though.

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by Nelson Baboon » Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:20 am

Carrousel wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:07 am
6667 wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:36 pm
anyone bringing cirklon into the discussion as a triumph of hardware in the sequencer arena should realize its completely and utterly meaningless to anyone who does not already have a cirklon. the waitlist of 18 months is an eternity in the context of learning an instrument/writing music. i've been on the waiting list since the beginning of covid as I believe its really the only remotely competitive hardware contender to daws w/r/t sequencing, but in my mind it pretty much doesn't exist and i've continued to sequence itb in the meantime.

It’s not that long at all. I waited around 18months myself. Just use other sequencers in the meantime like you say, it’s no big deal.
How can you say that what isn't a big deal for you wouldn't be a big deal for someone else?

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by Carrousel » Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:46 am

Nelson Baboon wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:20 am
Carrousel wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:07 am
6667 wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:36 pm
anyone bringing cirklon into the discussion as a triumph of hardware in the sequencer arena should realize its completely and utterly meaningless to anyone who does not already have a cirklon. the waitlist of 18 months is an eternity in the context of learning an instrument/writing music. i've been on the waiting list since the beginning of covid as I believe its really the only remotely competitive hardware contender to daws w/r/t sequencing, but in my mind it pretty much doesn't exist and i've continued to sequence itb in the meantime.

It’s not that long at all. I waited around 18months myself. Just use other sequencers in the meantime like you say, it’s no big deal.
How can you say that what isn't a big deal for you wouldn't be a big deal for someone else?
Well, let me rephrase - I think it’s daft to say that it’s ‘meaningless’ to mention the cirklon in a discussion on good sequencers just because it has an 18month waitlist.
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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by Nelson Baboon » Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:52 am

Carrousel wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:46 am
Nelson Baboon wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:20 am
Carrousel wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:07 am
6667 wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:36 pm
anyone bringing cirklon into the discussion as a triumph of hardware in the sequencer arena should realize its completely and utterly meaningless to anyone who does not already have a cirklon. the waitlist of 18 months is an eternity in the context of learning an instrument/writing music. i've been on the waiting list since the beginning of covid as I believe its really the only remotely competitive hardware contender to daws w/r/t sequencing, but in my mind it pretty much doesn't exist and i've continued to sequence itb in the meantime.

It’s not that long at all. I waited around 18months myself. Just use other sequencers in the meantime like you say, it’s no big deal.
How can you say that what isn't a big deal for you wouldn't be a big deal for someone else?
Well, let me rephrase - I think it’s daft to say that it’s ‘meaningless’ to mention the cirklon in a discussion on good sequencers just because it has an 18month waitlist.
i agree with your restatement!

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by hlprmnky » Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:17 pm

stepvhen wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:46 am
hlprmnky wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:08 pm
What does “song mode” in a hardware sequencer give you, that having a library of patterns you can perform as a song does not? In a “studio” setting you can use a DAW, in a performance setting, you’re already piloting the hovercraft. What’s the advantage to having a chain of patterns stored as opposed to having to “perform” it?
I'm just guessing, but you could prepare a consistent live set without putting a laptop on stage; use effects or play over the top of the song as its going live; if the sequencer has song mode and CV out, you know it will interface with the rest of your gear without much headache; any key/button based interface is going to be faster than a mouse, so theres an ease of use factor; maybe you have the money to spend on audio equipment but for whatever reason don't have or want to spend it on a powerful enough computer to run these resource intensive programs.

It's probably less about the functionality and more about the interface/experience itself.
I understand your point, but I think I wasn’t clear - I didn’t mean a library of patterns in a DAW, I meant a bunch of saved patterns on your device like, well, Patterns on a Circuit or Elektron box, or STATEs on a Rene2. My understanding of “song mode” is simply being able to additionally save an organization of patterns as a “song”. I can certainly see that such a feature would be useful to have, but my question arises from my perception that it’s a “quality of life” feature, and not a “enables new capabilities that are not achievable without it” feature, for the reasons I outlined. I’m hoping to find out what capabilities it enables that I’m missing so I too can say “what!? No song mode!? Elektron plz” in the future.

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by Lokua » Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:00 pm

hlprmnky wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:17 pm
stepvhen wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:46 am
hlprmnky wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:08 pm
What does “song mode” in a hardware sequencer give you, that having a library of patterns you can perform as a song does not? In a “studio” setting you can use a DAW, in a performance setting, you’re already piloting the hovercraft. What’s the advantage to having a chain of patterns stored as opposed to having to “perform” it?
I'm just guessing, but you could prepare a consistent live set without putting a laptop on stage; use effects or play over the top of the song as its going live; if the sequencer has song mode and CV out, you know it will interface with the rest of your gear without much headache; any key/button based interface is going to be faster than a mouse, so theres an ease of use factor; maybe you have the money to spend on audio equipment but for whatever reason don't have or want to spend it on a powerful enough computer to run these resource intensive programs.

It's probably less about the functionality and more about the interface/experience itself.
I understand your point, but I think I wasn’t clear - I didn’t mean a library of patterns in a DAW, I meant a bunch of saved patterns on your device like, well, Patterns on a Circuit or Elektron box, or STATEs on a Rene2. My understanding of “song mode” is simply being able to additionally save an organization of patterns as a “song”. I can certainly see that such a feature would be useful to have, but my question arises from my perception that it’s a “quality of life” feature, and not a “enables new capabilities that are not achievable without it” feature, for the reasons I outlined. I’m hoping to find out what capabilities it enables that I’m missing so I too can say “what!? No song mode!? Elektron plz” in the future.
One thing that is really hard to do without song mode is play anything else live over a sequence of patterns. Without song mode, you need to use a minimum of one hand to change patterns. This is absolutely ridiculous if your patterns are only a bar or two, you can only pretty much tweak a filter or some other parameters while you're changing patterns. Being able to quickly set [p1x2,p2x4,p3x2] (pattern and how many times it loops before going to the next) frees you to do something else in a performance.

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by RickKleffel » Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:13 pm

Which sequencers allow you to start with a blank pattern, record tracks, then copy the pattern to another location, [all while playing], then switch to the second [copied] version and transpose tracks and add new parts, then chain or set up in a song?

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by Blairio » Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:26 pm

What's forgotten is that Song Mode is actually a good use of memory, which is one of the reasons it featured early in the development of drum machines and sequencers - when memory was really expensive. Memory is cheap now, but Song Mode still reflects how a lot of music is constructed. Long live Song Mode!

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by LameAim » Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:19 am

JankySwitch wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:09 am
6667 wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:36 pm
waitlist of 18 months
That's a bit optimistic.
Same, I've been on the waitlist for nearly two and a half years now.

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by JankySwitch » Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:07 am

Nelson Baboon wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:18 am
JankySwitch wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:58 am
The Pyramid has 2 midi out din ports and usb midi, so you can address 48 midi channels + one cv channel.
hmmm - my comments weren't posted. Please forgive if this turns out to be a duplicate....

I had assumed that the usb and the midi ports were the same - just different hardware, so i had thought 32 midi channels. This is certainly the case with other midi devices that I have....hope you're right though.
Yep, the usb ports are addressable separately.
Although you can address any two midi/cv channels at once from the same track if you want. Great if you want to double up sounds on a bass line.

Source: Pyramid user (and Cirklon wait lister)

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by revtor » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:01 am

RickKleffel wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:13 pm
Which sequencers allow you to start with a blank pattern, record tracks, then copy the pattern to another location, [all while playing], then switch to the second [copied] version and transpose tracks and add new parts, then chain or set up in a song?
MidiboxSeq. With 8 DIN outs plus usb midi out.
But “record tracks” can mean a couple different things...
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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by pekbro » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:17 am

I like the sequencer in my Pro 3 quite a lot, one of the main reasons I bought the thing.

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by revtor » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:32 am

You think that today with cheap memory and powerful processors that track count, pattern length, song mode, midi channels etc. etc. being limitations would have been completely eliminated. I’m not a real programmer so I don’t really get it all, but, yeah sequencer tech in 2020 maybe not where it should be.?

That being said, I do not know the specs of the new range of MPC’s, maschine etc. My longform midi battleship of the Yamaha RM1X will never leave my studio.
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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by Nelson Baboon » Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:00 am

getting off the subject of sequencers for a minute....i have way overspent any notion of a budget and saving some $, and have purchased 4 very contemporary synthesizers (3 of which i have played with, and 1, the Wavestate, yet to arrive).

I'm not an expert at all in the underlying technology, but I'd be curious as to whether any of these instruments could have been made (at least at anywhere near their current price points, cured for inflation) 20 years ago. My choice obviously has been skewed by my tastes in synths, but I honestly do not remember there being so many real synths (romplers, meh, though I suppose someone might get uppity and throw the Wavestate in that category)...

All of these synths have great user interfaces (I suppose that the implementation of great interface design can only indirectly be attributed to the technology. Maybe an example is the old xpander, which, for a menu based machine, has an incredibly well designed interface. And no one releases synths of that size anymore! But it struggles so hard with all of the digital controls and modulation, which manifest everywhere in it. You can't have a discussion about the xpander, for instance, without mention of its slow envelopes. It's just a slow feeling machine....

None of the synths I mention have new forms of synthesis - a bugaboo for some, given that i've read all sorts of comments over the years that expect new categories of sounds that will somehow make the user live forever in a perpetual state of cosmic orgasm. But you know, if you have tons of accessible modulation and a great interface, and you look at sound as something beyond a static timbre, you can get awfully far with the traditional modes....

But - maybe I am simply being inspired by having 'new stuff', but could any of the following synths have been made 20 years ago? the motas-6 (maybe the best example in that it is one level a 'simple' monophonic analog synth, but there is just so, so much detail in it, especially in the different modes of modulation, the hydrasynth, with its spectacular ui and seemingly limitless modulation, the essencefm (just one night working with it, but holy fuck), and the wavestate (maybe shouldn't list it, since i haven't used it yet).

Is this necessarily a disappointment? No synths based on Cosmic Orgasm synthesis yet, but using the traditional methods, and just giving the user so much more (of what I, personally, am looking for. I suppose others might not find as much inspiration here).

I'd be curious to hear from a manufacturer/designer of these instruments on some of this - some seem to expect limitless quantity of features/voices etc, without this ever being a limitation. Why has the seemingly much greater computing power not led to more QUANTITY? For instance, wtf did they design the hydrasynth with only 8 voices? It's a digital synth. How much more would giving it 50 voices and making it multitimbral have added to the cost (always a factor, I suppose - they do have to stay in business). I hear people complaining about all of this stuff in theory, but I'd be curious to hear from someone who has actually made these DECISIONS.

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by Red Electric Rainbow » Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:20 am

6667 wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:36 pm
anyone bringing cirklon into the discussion as a triumph of hardware in the sequencer arena should realize its completely and utterly meaningless to anyone who does not already have a cirklon. the waitlist of 18 months is an eternity in the context of learning an instrument/writing music. i've been on the waiting list since the beginning of covid as I believe its really the only remotely competitive hardware contender to daws w/r/t sequencing, but in my mind it pretty much doesn't exist and i've continued to sequence itb in the meantime.
pump the brakes, you’ve only been on the waitlist for 6 months.

:lick:
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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by revtor » Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:52 am

Red Electric Rainbow wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:20 am
6667 wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:36 pm
anyone bringing cirklon into the discussion as a triumph of hardware in the sequencer arena should realize its completely and utterly meaningless to anyone who does not already have a cirklon. the waitlist of 18 months is an eternity in the context of learning an instrument/writing music. i've been on the waiting list since the beginning of covid as I believe its really the only remotely competitive hardware contender to daws w/r/t sequencing, but in my mind it pretty much doesn't exist and i've continued to sequence itb in the meantime.
pump the brakes, you’ve only been on the waitlist for 6 months.

:lick:
Plus over the next year they’ll be a bunch of them for sale used... They come up every now and then.
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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by tioJim » Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:38 am

Nelson Baboon wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:00 am
I'm not an expert at all in the underlying technology, but I'd be curious as to whether any of these instruments could have been made (at least at anywhere near their current price points, cured for inflation) 20 years ago.
Well without knowing what the instruments are ... I'd still say probably not

Two reasons. One for analog and digital each

Digital: Processing power is many times greater at a far lower price point
Analog: Most modern analog is SMT rather than thru-hole so cheaper

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Re: A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

Post by Nelson Baboon » Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:12 pm

tioJim wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:38 am
Nelson Baboon wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:00 am
I'm not an expert at all in the underlying technology, but I'd be curious as to whether any of these instruments could have been made (at least at anywhere near their current price points, cured for inflation) 20 years ago.
Well without knowing what the instruments are ... I'd still say probably not

Two reasons. One for analog and digital each

Digital: Processing power is many times greater at a far lower price point
Analog: Most modern analog is SMT rather than thru-hole so cheaper
i actually meant to list the synths: the motas-6, the hydrasynth, the essencefm, and the wavestate.

i actually got a response elsewhere from Jon, the maker of the motas-6, and (hope I'm summing up correctly), while the underlying analog technology is the same, the smt thing (don't want to babble about something i know nothing about) and the digital control being much more powerful, means that it couldn't have been done 20 years ago.

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