What kind of nut is this? (ESQ-1)

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eth
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What kind of nut is this? (ESQ-1)

Post by eth » Thu May 28, 2020 10:41 pm

Hey y'all, I've been working on fixing up an ESQ-1 and noticed the nuts on the various 1/4" jacks are rusted to all hell. Anyone know what kind of nuts these are, and where to get em? And/or, salvageable with some kind of cleaning solution?

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The "Jalco" jacks they belong to:
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Re: What kind of nut is this? (ESQ-1)

Post by oranginafiend » Thu May 28, 2020 10:46 pm

throw them in some vinegar for a day or two

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Re: What kind of nut is this? (ESQ-1)

Post by oranginafiend » Thu May 28, 2020 11:13 pm

i'm not sure exactly what kind of nut it is. you could probably take it to your local fastenal and have them find some replacements.

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Re: What kind of nut is this? (ESQ-1)

Post by eth » Fri May 29, 2020 1:25 am

oranginafiend wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 10:46 pm
throw them in some vinegar for a day or two
Got 'em bathing in some vinegar now.
oranginafiend wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 11:13 pm
i'm not sure exactly what kind of nut it is. you could probably take it to your local fastenal and have them find some replacements.
I rarely am able to find unusual parts at my local hardware stores, even when asking associates, unfortunately.

I will say that Syntaur stocks these nuts here: https://syntaur.com/Items.php?Item=4061 It's my understanding that they salvage parts from dead models; these ones are listed as "used". I'll probably order these as a long-term solution

Either way, it bugs me that I can't figure out what these are called :hmm:

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Re: What kind of nut is this? (ESQ-1)

Post by teleport » Fri May 29, 2020 1:31 am

Haven't seen that particular form factor - with the smooth barrels. As mentioned above, acids are good for cleaning and to an extent reversing the rust process - vinegar, tomato paste and coca-cola (diet version will avoid stickiness) are all household sources.

One name for nuts that secure through panel jacks like that is "nose nuts", (good luck googling that though).

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Re: What kind of nut is this? (ESQ-1)

Post by Flounderguts » Fri May 29, 2020 1:41 am

That's called a "shoulder nut." I can almost guarantee Fastenal won't have a part for that. Looks like a custom jobbie to me. Besides, you'd have to buy a bag as MOQ

You might find a PEMnut or other deep clench nut that will work.
I'd hit them with Evapo-rust anf a wire wheel, and then coat them.

they look a lot like the Marshall amp jack nuts. Maybe a shop like StewMac or AmericanAmpParts would have them? Roland used those Jalco jacks too, but the black nuts were a bit different.
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Re: What kind of nut is this? (ESQ-1)

Post by GGW » Fri May 29, 2020 12:21 pm

Is this close?

https://www.rack-solutions.ca/shoulder-screws-nuts.html


seem to be some sort of rack server hardware.

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Re: What kind of nut is this? (ESQ-1)

Post by Just me » Fri May 29, 2020 12:43 pm

Evaporust will clean them.
If you have a lathe, they would be easy to reproduce.
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Re: What kind of nut is this? (ESQ-1)

Post by eth » Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:23 pm

Thanks for the responses everyone. No further luck finding out what these are called.

I'm currently on day 3 of a vinegar bath. Been looking into DIY zinc electroplating of the de-rusted nuts as a long-term rust prevention method. Seems popular among vintage car buffs: http://www.southsandia.com/forum/websit ... ating.html

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Re: What kind of nut is this? (ESQ-1)

Post by KSS » Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:58 am

They are a type of T-nut. Surely custom made. A shoulder nut has two different outside diameters.

When the term T or Tee-nut is used, it often refers to a type with three sharp prongs to be used with wood to provide metal threads. But T-nuts is a much broader class than that single type. Essentially covering all types of axial extension.

Here's a -random- link to see some of the types made: http://www.tnutssupplier.com/tee-nuts.html

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Re: What kind of nut is this? (ESQ-1)

Post by Rex Coil 7 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:11 am

Well, I don't know about them being custom (and neither does anyone else here) .... I've seen those fasteners for decades used on various motorcycles and industrial power equipment.

And yes, a "T-Nut" is something totally different than what is being discussed here. I installed 112 T-nuts in my modular cabinet, works great.

These are T-Nuts (pics are of my modular project, taken two years ago) .....
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Re: What kind of nut is this? (ESQ-1)

Post by Rex Coil 7 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:36 am

I'd add that this device may be as old as 35 years since it was manufactured. That said, there is just as likely a chance that the fastener manufacturer is long gone, and those fasteners were part of their normal inventory ... as it is just as likely that the fastener manufacturer is still around. I said that no one really knows if those are "custom" fasteners, since they could have very easily been something that a long gone fastener manufacturer stocked in their inventory. To say that these fasteners are "custom" is conjecture. And honestly, whether those are custom or not is of no matter ... what matters is "can they be replaced with new today".

One other small thing ... someone said that placing those fasteners in a lathe would make short work of cleaning them up. I've been a machinist and metalworker since high school (1970s) ... I would not want my fingers that close to a 1,000 rpm three jaw chuck. The chance that more than rust would be removed in that scenario is fairly high (as in removing fingers or fingernails or compound fracture in one or more fingers).

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5U MODULAR NORMALIZING PROJECT (for your entertainment) viewtopic.php?t=78836&highlight=
.. given the choice between conformity and self respect, I choose the latter.
.. dominion - noun: control or the exercise of control . power . possessed and controlled domain . sovereignty . having dominion over the world . supreme authority . absolute ownership . power . authority . jurisdiction . control . command ... power ....... power .......... power.

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Re: What kind of nut is this? (ESQ-1)

Post by KSS » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:10 am

They are BOTH T-nuts. The wood type and the ones of the OP.

I will again say they are surely custom. While agreeing with your point that -in another case- they could have once been somebody's common stock.

The problem with that statement is that what was once common stock is often custom made for the stockist. As here.

edit: missed one. As for making these today, any decent machine shop or even DIY machinist could make these. It's not a complicated part. /edit

As for your machinist experience. Anyone putting this part in a 3 jaw at 1kRPM is an idiot in the first place. Even if the lathe is a Sherline. Add that anyone with fingers close in even a proper setup for cleaning these -which wouldn't involve being near a 3 jaw- is also an idiot. A wire brush used with a mandrel would indeed have made short work of cleaning these.

You've become quite good at making straw dogs.

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Re: What kind of nut is this? (ESQ-1)

Post by murch33 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:59 am

Not a single person said “deez”.

I’m disappointed.

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Re: What kind of nut is this? (ESQ-1)

Post by GGW » Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:47 pm

It's actually a thread about naming nuts, right?


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Re: What kind of nut is this? (ESQ-1)

Post by Flounderguts » Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:46 pm

Yeah, I'd not put one of those in a lathe chuck. Vibratory tumbler, maybe.
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Re: What kind of nut is this? (ESQ-1)

Post by timc3 » Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:03 am

I doubt they are custom, my Dad used to have a bunch of those, but larger, in his workshop I think for something on a tractor. I remember playing with them as a kid.

Might want to look here: https://www.pemnet.com/fastening-produc ... eners-new/ but I would just replace the whole Socket if you could

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Re: What kind of nut is this? (ESQ-1)

Post by acidbob » Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:06 am

Maybe check with Neutrik or similar
2020-06-03 12_05_16-3 Plugs+Jacks PG V7 2008.pdf - 341174.pdf.png
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Re: What kind of nut is this? (ESQ-1)

Post by KSS » Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:54 am

Flounderguts wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:46 pm
Yeah, I'd not put one of those in a lathe chuck. Vibratory tumbler, maybe.
Just stick them on a mandrel in a Hardinge or other 2nd op 5C chucker and have a go. No big deal. An r8 in a Bridgeport would also work fine. Spin them on and off with spindle Fwd/Rev.

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Re: What kind of nut is this? (ESQ-1)

Post by Flounderguts » Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:33 pm

timc3 wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:03 am
I doubt they are custom, my Dad used to have a bunch of those, but larger, in his workshop I think for something on a tractor. I remember playing with them as a kid.

Might want to look here: https://www.pemnet.com/fastening-produc ... eners-new/ but I would just replace the whole Socket if you could
They are *not* PEMnuts. PEM and some other manufacturers make clench- or clinch- (depending on where you are from) nuts that are for adding threads to thin metal. Also called swage nuts. We use them extensively on our products...I think there are about 40 pem-style nuts on each trike.

Yes, they look similar.

One of the issues sourcing stuff like this is nomenclature. For instance, we use Heim joints for our steering system. One manufacturer calls them Heim Joints, another Rose Joints, and still another rod-end bearings. And they are all selling the identical part. To make it more confusing, one of our guys insists on calling them bell-crank ends (but he's craaazy)

So it goes with these nuts, which KSS calls a T-nut, I call a shoulder-nut (https://www.neagri.com/product/aluminum ... -15-32-32/), and the manufacturer of the jacks calls a Trim Nut. Roland has a similar nut on the jacks of their older amps, and in their fiche it is called a jack nut. Marshall also uses a similar nut, and they call them barrel nuts.

All these nuts drive me nuts.
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Re: What kind of nut is this? (ESQ-1)

Post by eth » Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:12 pm

Wow, definitely didn't expect this amount of discourse!

Regarding cleaning up the existing bolts, I have zero lathe experience/access. The vinegar has done a pretty good job of getting the majority of the rust off, and a brass wire brush has been helpful as well, but getting the threads totally clean is challenging. I tried some 0000 steel wool, but I think maybe it's too fine.

I've seen vibratory tumblers recommended for this kind of job, and they look fantastic. However, I'm not sure if I can justify the cost for this one-off project. Maybe I can get into rock tumbling. :goo:

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Re: What kind of nut is this? (ESQ-1)

Post by KSS » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:12 am

Try a stainless steel brush. Should make quick work of cleaning the threads. Put a nut -or several- on a suitably sized dowel to make it easier to hold for cleaning.

0000 steel wool is going to be a mess. Coarser better overall but still won't clean the threads well. The steel fibers bridge the valleys. That's why a brush is better. Stainless bristles are stiffer than the brass, and you don't have any spark or metal compatibility issues here so it's a good choice. Toothbrush size should be available many places. Speaking of toothbrush, an old one might help with getting more results from your vinegar. Periodic brushing should help and speed the process.

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Re: What kind of nut is this? (ESQ-1)

Post by bitflip » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:19 am

Gosh diggly darn dang it, i swore i had a supplier for these since i'd replaced something nearly identical on a Matrix 6, but it's been a few years and i lost the invoice :despair:

I believe that these nuts can interchangeably be called shoulder nuts or ferrule nuts. Yours appear to be very similar to ferrule nuts for compression fittings, but out of a different material (comp fittings are usually brass). For instance, turning some of the wrench flats off this part would be halfway there ;)
industrial-fastener-500x500.jpg


There are a bunch of similar jacks and nuts here, but none quite seal the deal im afraid :cry: : https://amprepairparts.com/jacks.htm Good luck!
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Re: What kind of nut is this? (ESQ-1)

Post by eth » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:44 am

KSS wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:12 am
Try a stainless steel brush. Should make quick work of cleaning the threads. Put a nut -or several- on a suitably sized dowel to make it easier to hold for cleaning.

0000 steel wool is going to be a mess. Coarser better overall but still won't clean the threads well. The steel fibers bridge the valleys. That's why a brush is better. Stainless bristles are stiffer than the brass, and you don't have any spark or metal compatibility issues here so it's a good choice. Toothbrush size should be available many places. Speaking of toothbrush, an old one might help with getting more results from your vinegar. Periodic brushing should help and speed the process.
Thanks for the suggestions. I’ll like the dowel rod & stainless steel brush ideas. First time ever buying/using tools like these; appreciate the insight

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Re: What kind of nut is this? (ESQ-1)

Post by eth » Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:08 pm

Well, I ended up trying a combination of vinegar, steel brush, and evaporust to de-rust the nuts. To hopefully prevent further rusting, I ordered this Black Oxide kit from Caswell, which seems to be a popular company among vintage car restoration folk: https://www.caswellplating.com/black-ox ... -2824.html

I probably let the nuts sit in the evaporust for too long, but otherwise followed the instructions to a T, and here was the result:

Image

Obviously looks way better than the initial photos, but I think I needed to do some kind of mechanical scrubbing after removing the nuts from the evaporust. That residual staining looks a lot more yellow to my naked eye, which leads me to believe I didn't clean off all the evaporust. Might try again once I figure out how to remove the black oxide coating.

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