Behringer 2600

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KSS
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Re: Behringer 2600

Post by KSS » Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:13 pm

tenembre wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:16 am
So it seems reasonable, or at least possible, that the improvements are to get the final product closer to the original 2600. He did also say something about a modern sound, so who knows. (I'm not doing any more transcribing of the video- this has taken too long to write already, lol). But there's enough ambiguity here that ranting about how engineers ruin things is premature. Certainly the egos of a number of people here are invested in the idea that they will get it wrong, but I'm inclined to give them a chance.
I really appreciate the time you took, tenembre. Your alternative view has merit, after re-listening to the video. At least the parts I've snipped from this reply. Those do indeed present some potential for ambiguity.

As for the portion of your reply I've included here, it may help to explain where my comments -rant? really? was not meant to be a rant- came from.

There is so much digital reverb on those sounds that at least in the presented video, if he's trying to get closer to the orginal, it's currently missed the mark. And that is the context for saying that small genuinely positive intended changes more often than not add up to a missed target. As I wrote, it *does* sound ARP-ish, and even good, but it is pretty hard to drill through the digital reverb to truly assess its proximity to a vintage 2600 or accurate clone.

I am sure that combined with my prior knowledge of Rob's choices, aims, directions and emphasis, gained from years of following his projects, using his product and reading his words, did come into play as I composed that reply. He is very much a fan of 'cleaning up the sound' with "better" components. Adding to this is my knowledge that a few of the things he's said about 2600 circuits specifically -as posted on his website- were or are absolutely wrong. I'm glad your reply allowed me to think of how my own cog bias' might be woven into my words. Having said that, i don't think anything I wrote needs to be edited, as long as both our posts remain in this thread. I still stand by my words, with a better understanding of how another view may also be true.

My ego is not invested in whether Behringer, or Korg, or Jon with the TTSH project, or Antonus, etc. get it right or not. There is plenty of room in the marketplace for the various implementations.

I *am* invested in making an effort to bring some technical truth to these kinds of discussions, as that is largely lost in many threads I've read here and on other synth forums. With that in mind, again will say thank you for pointing out how there can be an alternative interpretation of what Rob says in the video.

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brokensolderingiron
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Re: Behringer 2600

Post by brokensolderingiron » Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:17 pm

Ceres wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:37 pm
brokensolderingiron wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:00 pm

Most demos is crap these days, im not worried, if B2600 is cheapo and as long it sounds OK, 3340 or not why would i care of none exact clone of ARP2600. Where does Behringer say its exact clone of A2600?

The product literally has 2600 in the name, the 2 part video tease starts off with a real 2600 and the engineer discusses his attempts to make it sound and behave like a real 2600.

If it’s not important how it sounds and behaves, what is important? If your only criteria is that it is a synth made by behringer than you could go buy a couple Neutrons and have more capabilities than a 2600 at a very cheap price and have it now.
Well thats parts of my point.

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Re: Behringer 2600

Post by Flounderguts » Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:07 pm

thetwlo wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:21 am
those slider pots suck, WMD offers caps, Makes them a bit better. They're just copying mis-direction. They don't need an LED.
I like sliders, especially since I have next to none in my setup. I also like LEDs. Blinkies are addictive, and I seem to crave blinking lights since I moved back stateside from Japan.

Also, they're dimmable all the way to off, so you don't have to actually look at them if you don't want to. It's well marketed to blinky addicts like me. Not as fun as the 4MS blinkies, though...
----------------------

Flounderguts

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Re: Behringer 2600

Post by dooj88 » Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:20 pm

well now i'm one big step closer to my dream of opening the Alternative Synthesis School: The Richard Devine Experience. now that 2600s aren't prohibitively expensive, i'll be able to set up 3 or 4 in my parent's garage, feed the student some ol lysergic and let them learn about sound and synthesis under shockingly visceral conditions.

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Re: Behringer 2600

Post by brokensolderingiron » Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:23 pm

tenembre made some points to you about your interpretation of what Rob actually said , wont evolve into that but....
KSS wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:50 pm
I wonder -truly- if there is a communication gap due to perhaps not being a native English speaker? I mean no ill will in asking, I only saw in the copyright thread with mskala that you also misunderstood what he said -at least at first- though it did seem that you came to understand based on your last post there? I couldn't be sure, but it seemed as if you came to understand what he'd been saying all along. Again, absolutely *no* ill will is meant, I have seen how culture and language differences can show up in threads in bad ways.
Of course but it also might be your/mskala deliberate lack of reading comprehension?! Could also be interpreted as a "ego" driven classic
strawman i.e deliberate ill will use of language/refocusing tactics to things outside debate as means to avoid providing evidence for prior
claims while dearly excusing your self its of no ill intent?! So yes, your right it can show up in many bad ways, i dont know, but the
possibilities are there.

Anyhow, your right you/mskala do misunderstand the laws behind patent and copyrights of the simple fact neither been in court dealing
with those issues nor can provide any court evidence of prior successful copyright case despite repeated requests?! And thereafter
you/mskala go into a form of endless "circular argumentation" which courts dont buy into.
With this in mind, the arguments in that thread I would hope to avoid here, as this reply of yours seems to largely miss
the points I was making , and while you seem to have technical ability, you are incorrect about a couple things here.
Not at all, i'm spot on your "imaginary" points and thats the point! Well you already brought it up again so your promises
of trying to avoid it went down the toilet as we both can see here. I get the impression you base your points on personal emotions
about what Rob say and didnt say?! Nothing wrong with such things if at appropriate places yet not in "tech discussions" by
obvious provenience.
Most importantly, I suggest you read Alan Pearlman's expo patent, which is available at till.com. Go to the ARP patents section.
There you will find that your belief about the reason and result in matching the expo pair is incorrect.
You put words in my mouth i didnt say, thats quite nasty done, i said matching is for more things your claim of one namely:
The matching has only to do with thermal compensation and *not* expo/log conformity.

Else ARP would not had included tempco resistors or bind the 2 trannies together and even epoxy them to slow down
thermal changes as the total blob mass becomes larger (side effect of real intent) besides other folks use ovens.
I also discussed this in the DIY section of MW not too long ago if you want more context. That was in a TTSH build thread,
probably V4. Matching is for thermal compensation, not log conformance. That's straight from the inventor of the circuit, as seen
in the patent. In that other thread, I cite paragraph and line numbers so if you don't want to read looking for it, that thread may
be a good first stop. However, I suggest anyone seeking technical truth *do* take the time to read and understand the various
patents relating to vintage synthesizers. Don Till has at least the moog and ARP collections well sorted.
Its strange because you dont seams to read what ARP said either in your quest for "technical thrutism"! Shouldn't you live as you preach?
You talk about matching in expos which is a general concept then narrows it down into a very specific expo design, thats not honest
"truthfull technical" debating per my standard besides you putting words into my mouth i didnt say.

As Rob also points out the input impedance issue of Alan Perlmans expo as a rather notable drawback of that type of el cheapo
expo which i notice you dont even mention which would be one of your points if you had read Alan Perlmans patents you recommend!?

For the general NPN/PNP 2 tranny expo:
There are 2 temp terms, 1 and 2 both dependent on temperature and predicted by equation but since no ideal transistors exist you need matching.

The current flowing in one diode/(transistor is converted by the other diode/transistor) if you dont match them this conversion
change of slope goes wonky. This vertical shift is much smaller then the horizontal shift.

You need god quality matched decent gain transistors with low Rbe and low leakage placing collector current in between
saturation/starvation range who cause osc to go wonky. If you have different Rbe in each tranny the translation will be wonky.

Quality transistors shall give you a proportional relationship between collector current to the exponential of the base current
according to the standard equation of currents and transistor construction dependent constants. Basically common
base gain and emitter saturation current.

As already pointed out the matching cancels the first grade but not second grade temperature dependencies.
Therefore the circuit works well but contains imperfections that needed to taken care of.

So you can go the route of ovenizing one/two trannies expos but chip distance of sensor and heating may cause issues if not careful
of what you do. But im puzzled you have no knowledge of ovens and NTC/PTC tempco resistors etc.which ARP uses.. this lack of such
basic knowledge makes me wonder! No ill intent here, there just observing.
My post was not -at all- about fat v thin sound. It is about how small engineering changes -intended as upgrades- end up instead
removing the important character and operating characteristics of vintage synths.
Well, you expressed a more emotional rather the tech based reasoning for how cloners dont do to your perception of how it should
be done, which of course can be completely wrong, why clone if you can improve something pretending its a clone was my point.
I do see in your reply here that you do not mind if it no longer is the sound of the original, and that's fine. My post and work is for those who do care about and wish for close similarity in sound and operation to the original.
My point was exactly that, your audience and your self should not buy the B2600 rather build their own clone or buy a original unit,
thats due to the bias into believe B2600 is an absolute clone which is not..
I also think you misunderstood what I was saying about the waveforms, based on your reply that inserting a cap in the feedback would be enough to undo what Rob had done. I probably did not write that clearly enough.
Yes probably however my reply was for the general context, as means to cap'ing all over the place to "funky up" the wave, the core both or all, a very valid case of point.
It seems you didn't notice that Robs claim of improvement 7-8 octaves is *not* an improvement over a typical well cared for 2600. That was part of my point. He's doing things which change the sound for no good result-improvement. We will also have to agree to disagree that "its always better to get wider range as a bonus" because that's the knife in the heart of the reason why clones mostly suck compared to the originals. I have been involved with synths since the late 60's, and find it sad that everyone expects all OSCs to meet huge ranges, when acoustic instruments are revered with extremely limited scope. Trying to make every synth into a be all, do all is the worst thing ever.
Oldness of yours is not a merit in the transgender identity, climate change correct world of GRETA and Soros NGOs , however i do notice you
trying to make a new point by avoiding your previous points/claims, which ofcourse also is sort of dishonest debating technique, but i be
pragmatic and wont evolve into that.

I did notice Robs claim that's why i replied to your statements/claims as it's better to have 14 octave range then 7-8 for obvious FM reasons.
Buts since range extensions (if matching trannies in expos as mentioned) have no significant impact in sound of the B2600 whos not a clone
to begin with nobody cares about the extended range not being as per A2600 , that was my point of your failure of reasoning as you did and
still do.
This is really the whole of my point, distilled into one thought: When making a clone, take something from the medical profession's Hippocratic oath, and "first do no harm."
And my point was the B2600 is not a clone, and thats you major mistake and misunderstanding, besides the missunderstanding of matching transistors.
Finally, it is rather funny you suggest I might "build a clone for myself" from one of the 4 available. Later this year you'll see the irony of that statement. I don;t recognize you and don;t remember reading any of your posts before today, so I realize I have only a small understanding of your viewpoints, experience and concerns. Perhaps that is also true for you with me. A reading of my posts might better reflect my own experience, and abilities, especially where ARP are concerned.
There is no irony or ill intended agendas intended or attached with my statements, its just a "point" of the availability of probable choices.
Do people really think Korg2600 is an exact clone? People like to fool themselves. I dont really get it why you so attached to emotions and
ability use of language and persona instead of focusing on the debating of tech as such instead. :despair:
Until then, Thank you for your feedback, and I think you will enjoy learning more about how the Alan Pearlman mixed NPN/PNP expo pair work.
Thank you i wish you the same , and please read some more then just Alan Perlman, there are literature out there explaining something called tempco resistors and ovenisation of single/dual/multi exponating transistors. Also dont forget Dr Moog early modular career had very temp sensitive expos.
Last edited by brokensolderingiron on Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.

tenembre

Re: Behringer 2600

Post by tenembre » Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:27 pm

KSS wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:13 pm
tenembre wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:16 am
So it seems reasonable, or at least possible, that the improvements are to get the final product closer to the original 2600. He did also say something about a modern sound, so who knows. (I'm not doing any more transcribing of the video- this has taken too long to write already, lol). But there's enough ambiguity here that ranting about how engineers ruin things is premature. Certainly the egos of a number of people here are invested in the idea that they will get it wrong, but I'm inclined to give them a chance.
My ego is not invested in whether Behringer, or Korg, or Jon with the TTSH project, or Antonus, etc. get it right or not. There is plenty of room in the marketplace for the various implementations.

I *am* invested in making an effort to bring some technical truth to these kinds of discussions, as that is largely lost in many threads I've read here and on other synth forums. With that in mind, again will say thank you for pointing out how there can be an alternative interpretation of what Rob says in the video.
You're welcome, and thank you for making a good technical post that was worth taking the time to respond to in depth. The egos comment wasn't directed at you. Rock on.

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Re: Behringer 2600

Post by KSS » Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:06 pm

brokensolderingiron wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:23 pm
Its strange because you dont seams to read what ARP said either in your quest for "technical thrutism"! Shouldn't you live as you preach?
You talk about matching in expos which is a general concept then narrows it down into a very specific expo design, thats not honest
"truthfull technical" debating per my standard besides you putting words into my mouth i didnt say.

As Rob also points out the input impedance issue of Alan Perlmans expo as a rather notable drawback of that type of el cheapo
expo which i notice you dont even mention which would be one of your points if you had read Alan Perlmans patents you recommend!?
I am well aware of PTC and NTC 'tempcos' and how they relate, as well as the ovens of 726's ,moog's and doepfer's 3046 versions, etc. And I am quite comfortable letting my words stand as written. No narrowing is needed, the exponentiation occurs in one transistor of the pair, whether they be PNP, NPN or mixed as in the typical ARP Osc's of the 2600, ODY, Axxe and Little Brother.

As for the variable impedance of ARPs VCO expo's i did in fact mention that exact thing in at least one post I've typed in the last few days -prior to your post here.

We all show ourselves with every post, and I'm fine with you thinking whatever you think about my knowledge, experience, and accuracy. Everyone can read the words we've written and decide for themselves who and what to believe.

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Re: Behringer 2600

Post by KSS » Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:13 pm

brokensolderingiron wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:23 pm
. Also dont forget Dr Moog early modular career had very temp sensitive expos.
Yes, I did write about that also in the last few days -before this post of yours- in the B55 thread. From discrete diodes to the CA3019's of the 901 and 901A, to the individual expos of the 921 and 921B's.

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Re: Behringer 2600

Post by naos » Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:31 pm

That prototype-thing is so ugly that it's nausea-inducing, it's like Behringer are taking us to a parallel universe or a deeper level of Hell.
Also, judging from browsing that thread, modular is a serious mental illness.

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Re: Behringer 2600

Post by Orwell » Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:38 pm

naos wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:31 pm
Also, judging from browsing that thread, modular is a serious mental illness.
Quote of Jan 2020. Hilariously true. :slapfight:
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Re: Behringer 2600

Post by brokensolderingiron » Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:07 pm

KSS wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:06 pm
brokensolderingiron wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:23 pm
Its strange because you dont seams to read what ARP said either in your quest for "technical thrutism"! Shouldn't you live as you preach?
You talk about matching in expos which is a general concept then narrows it down into a very specific expo design, thats not honest
"truthfull technical" debating per my standard besides you putting words into my mouth i didnt say.

As Rob also points out the input impedance issue of Alan Perlmans expo as a rather notable drawback of that type of el cheapo
expo which i notice you dont even mention which would be one of your points if you had read Alan Perlmans patents you recommend!?
I am well aware of PTC and NTC 'tempcos' and how they relate, as well as the ovens of 726's ,moog's and doepfer's 3046 versions, etc. And I am quite comfortable letting my words stand as written. No narrowing is needed, the exponentiation occurs in one transistor of the pair, whether they be PNP, NPN or mixed as in the typical ARP Osc's of the 2600, ODY, Axxe and Little Brother.

As for the variable impedance of ARPs VCO expo's i did in fact mention that exact thing in at least one post I've typed in the last few days -prior to your post here.

We all show ourselves with every post, and I'm fine with you thinking whatever you think about my knowledge, experience, and accuracy. Everyone can read the words we've written and decide for themselves who and what to believe.
Yes i concur, i have no particular thoughts or sinister ideas about your knowledge,your knowledge is most likely OK if applied at the right time at the right point in the schematic and not as an after thought construction as a tool to save your self the loss of prestige in your faulty applied opinions of B2600 construction and Robs opinions about the B2600 clone thats not real clone as i mentioned many times.

I certainly dont accuse you of this but it had to be mentioned , i just had counter opinions to that and the fact despite you watching the B2600 video and Rob's blabber newer actually listened to what Rob actually said but went ballistic criticizing everyone and Rob's granny for all sorta "faulty engineering" while avoiding to debating numerous facts around the concept of cloning as i pointed out many times, which can be viewed from many angels to be sorta strawman tactics something i unfortunately seen employed many times , sadly i should say! But lets say your slip was a "minor fault" on your behalf as i'm absolutely convinced you can agree to that now finally despite trying to avoid just that point during the lengthy exchange of our opinions that led nowhere as usually in all those pointless debates about Bheringer this Bheringer that!

In my opinion the B2600 is going to be a kick ass pimped A2600 and while the "musicians correctness" (variant of politically correctness) K2600 can go suck wet donkey balls as far as im concerned! With no ill intent meant at Korg of course.

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Re: Behringer 2600

Post by 3hands » Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:14 pm

Orwell wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:38 pm
naos wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:31 pm
Also, judging from browsing that thread, modular is a serious mental illness.
Quote of Jan 2020. Hilariously true. :slapfight:
I second that. Hahaha! That’s hilarious! Honestly nearly lost my tea reading that!!
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Re: Behringer 2600

Post by jaypodesta » Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:02 pm

New video


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Re: Behringer 2600

Post by Analog Prophet » Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:50 pm

Regardless what the label or the purists says (I’m a purist but openminded... if I had a good day, and I had today) it sounds awesome in my ears and looks gorgeous, a great synth on its own. It doesn't make me cancel my Arp 2600 FS order, but wow, this little baby touch my analog soul.
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Re: Behringer 2600

Post by pulpum » Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:04 pm

sounds good, looks good (except for led colors and power switch placement)... is it 7u? it looks like a bit longer than 84HP..?

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Re: Behringer 2600

Post by beyourdog » Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:38 pm

I personnally ordered the Korg one (Sold my 2600 when moved from city to city when I was married) but as a happy owner of the Behringer Odyssey, I hope they’ll be able to replicate the mighty 2600 beast. Their Odyssey is really, really good.

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Re: Behringer 2600

Post by RickKleffel » Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:37 pm

This looks and sounds very nice. The additions to the original seem useful. The control surface and sliders are the right size. It seems to offer a lot of control over a good base sound. Is there a price yet? That and the MS101 seems like a nice pairing. The 9YD Korg is superb, and this looks to reach similar heights without the high price tag and artificially short supply. I'm interested in these clones not because they sound exactly like the original model, but rather because they offer similar (and sometimes more flexible) control over the sound coming out the out jacks. And fun! Fun is NOT optional.

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Re: Behringer 2600

Post by thispoison » Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:01 pm

Sounds great!

I’m still hoping my Korg 2600 preorder arrives, but this would be a great fallback if I miss out.
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Re: Behringer 2600

Post by deftinwulf » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:14 pm

The new demo sounds absolutely fantastic. :love: But the prototype gray color was more beautiful, IMO. I hope that color makes a comeback, even if black is truer to the original.

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Re: Behringer 2600

Post by pelican » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:40 pm

Sounds good, but doesn’t really sound like a 2600
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Re: Behringer 2600

Post by KSS » Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:03 am

Someone at Behringer needs to spend some time on the digital reverb. As soon as it gets involved, you might as well be playing a soft synth. Total buzzkill to what otherwise seems a decent effort. I'm sure those who prefer digital effects and without direct comparison to the springs of an OG 2600 may feel differently.
While we can split hairs about much in a clone discussion, this is so immediately obvious -and sad- that it pulls the rest down. The option to not use it is there, but the springs are such an important element to this synth's signature sounds that doing without is not really the option it appears to be.

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Re: Behringer 2600

Post by Analog Prophet » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:36 am

KSS wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:03 am
Someone at Behringer needs to spend some time on the digital reverb. As soon as it gets involved, you might as well be playing a soft synth.
I agree, the reverb sounded more like the signal was processed by a spring roll than a spring reverb. Is the size of the built to small to fit a reverb tank? If so, what about a digital efx with different types of tasteful digital reverbs and tape delay (but not a zillion of unusable effects) as the present reverb is digital and the machine not a complete clone of an Arp 2600 but a great tribute with a modern twist?
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Re: Behringer 2600

Post by beyourdog » Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:45 am

I agree the spring reverb gives a lot of caracter to the 2600.

In fact, I’d like to hear for some time a simple drone of the 3 vco in it as they normally sound massive like that, like a military plane flying over.

The sample and hold in the VCOs is beautiful too in this synth, you could listen to the SH for hours, just lift the first slider in the first 2 vco and it s party time...

What about the ring mod as well?

The guy coearly doesn’t know the 2600 as you can simply play with the sliders to change everything, stick VCOs to lfo mod and control the filter at the same time as thw vcos...

Last thing, I loved the sequential switch on it, well, without the keyboard, it gives you a simple welcome to the machine when tuned in E..

Anyway, if they use a cheap digital reverb, it becomes a bit of a lame job to surf on the Korg reissue on the cheap...I understand the economics but fuck, raise the price $50 and give it a fucking reverb tank...

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Re: Behringer 2600

Post by kons » Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:49 am

Absolutely agree on the reverb. It's awful. My exact thought was that when he brought in the reverb it just sounded like an underwhelming softsynth.

Well at least I don't have to worry about whether or not to add yet another beh to the 'want' list.

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Re: Behringer 2600

Post by Kattefjaes » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:13 am

Divinital wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:47 am
RIP Korg. RIP preorders.
Err no. Korg sold out instantly, even the preorder demand outstripped supply massively. Anyone lucky enough to have the space and budget for the Korg who happened to also get one is unlikely to abandon it on the strength of these videos.

Also, wow, that reverb.. it'd be ok in a budget Euro module, but in a 2600? It's an insult. The target market might not care, but a spring reverb is conspicuous by its absence.
Last edited by Kattefjaes on Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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