Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Ears » Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:11 pm

Rex Coil 7 wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:32 pm
Kattefjaes wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:47 am
3hands wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:46 am
It’s actually Mr Behringer. Capitals are your friend. Get it right. Now get back to work and manufacture me some cheap gear.
I believe that the formal mode of address is to call him "Papa Uli".
While we're ~here~ ... Member *3hands .. get to work yourself on your lousy grammar. "manufacture me" .. pfft ... "Now get back to work and manufacture some cheap gear for me". There ya go ... see there? :tu:

Reminds a person of these people that say the likes of "recommend me a VCO" or "suggest me a mixer" .... (I'll not recommend "you" or suggest "you" for anything until you learn at least 4th grade grammar).

If one is going to lecture another about "formal mode of address", one must shit their own git together first. :hihi:

I mean, since we're being pedantic shits and all ... y'know? Right?

:yay: how fun! :lol:
sudo manufacture a sandwich for me

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Nelson Baboon » Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:20 pm

strettara wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:15 pm
DaShmoop wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:35 am
If you aren't happy with our current corporate overrun world then sending your hard earned money to a company like Moog instead of Behringer is worth the difference. We're in a consumerist trap where many people will buy a cheaply constructed rip off synthesizer from a company with questionable ethics just to save a buck so they can buy more gear. I'd rather have a single Moog than a studio full of Behringer.

As a society we should take more pride in music and uphold it as a sacred art. We're all on this forum because at one or multiple points in our lives we have been deeply impacted by music. I personally want to support a company that makes music gear because of their deep connection to music, rather than their uncontrollable greed.
I have to ask - how do you know what Uli Behringer's connection to music is? How do you know he's motivated just by greed? How do you know he's not deeply impacted by music, as much as any of us? It seems pretty presumptuous, this attitude. Maybe he always struggled to afford high priced equipment when he was a boy and now has a mission to "democratize" music production.

I mean I don't know anything about the guy nor do I care very much, but I find the moralistic posturing on this forum over a company selling cheap equipment pretty distasteful, let alone the very personal attacks on Behringer himself. It's business and business disputes are settled in court by the businesses in question. I'm sure Arturia - to name a case in point - has the resources to take Behringer to court if they want to, and whether they choose to or not is entirely their affair.

As for contributing to music, I imagine Uli Behringer has contributed far more than most people.

BTW - techno as a sacred art? :lol: :lol: :lol: You gotta laugh.
you nicely chop stuff up into categories that fit with your condescending attitude. One can do the same, pretty much, with anything

One can say that, in the general sense, it's good to 'democratize' the industry so that musicians can afford cool gear. So, one can then conclude (not falsely) that therefore one has contributed to the industry. But then, what if one believes (this is not the same as having some kind of electronic scope that reads someone's 'true' motivations, whatever they are, and however that would work) that there are some ethical problems with the way that someone runs their business? That they are trying to use their resources to put more creative manufacturers out of business by putting out cheaper versions gear? Note that I'm not concluding one way or the other on this, but I note that he has truly pissed off some people that I respect. Well, ok - i guess that I've decided myself not to buy Behringer gear any more. At the same time, I can't get down on people who do because they can't afford Moog gear, or other gear that is more expensive, partly because of the r&d that the originators

given today's world, you really think that the only debate about someone's ethics should take place in court? I wasn't aware that law litigated ethics per se.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by flashheart » Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:45 pm

strettara wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:15 pm
DaShmoop wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:35 am
If you aren't happy with our current corporate overrun world then sending your hard earned money to a company like Moog instead of Behringer is worth the difference. We're in a consumerist trap where many people will buy a cheaply constructed rip off synthesizer from a company with questionable ethics just to save a buck so they can buy more gear. I'd rather have a single Moog than a studio full of Behringer.

As a society we should take more pride in music and uphold it as a sacred art. We're all on this forum because at one or multiple points in our lives we have been deeply impacted by music. I personally want to support a company that makes music gear because of their deep connection to music, rather than their uncontrollable greed.
I have to ask - how do you know what Uli Behringer's connection to music is? How do you know he's motivated just by greed? How do you know he's not deeply impacted by music, as much as any of us? It seems pretty presumptuous, this attitude. Maybe he always struggled to afford high priced equipment when he was a boy and now has a mission to "democratize" music production.

I mean I don't know anything about the guy nor do I care very much, but I find the moralistic posturing on this forum over a company selling cheap equipment pretty distasteful, let alone the very personal attacks on Behringer himself. It's business and business disputes are settled in court by the businesses in question. I'm sure Arturia - to name a case in point - has the resources to take Behringer to court if they want to, and whether they choose to or not is entirely their affair.

As for contributing to music, I imagine Uli Behringer has contributed far more than most people.

BTW - techno as a sacred art? :lol: :lol: :lol: You gotta laugh.
Re personal attack, you might be referring to my post with the picture. You're right, that was out of order and TBH I regret posting it. Something just triggered me at the time, for whatever reason this latest move just really angered me. No reason it should really, I'm not in the business and as you say this is business vs business, but Behringer has been doing this for over 20 years now and I guess I'm just fed up with this abuse of his position.
They don't need to do this, could have easily produced a controller that was obviously different from Arturia's, could have added features, maybe used a full-size keyboard, just done something FFS to differentiate. But no, let's copy it it as close as we legally can and undercut Arturia. I notice in his post about 'competition' how he refers to his lawyers checking patents, he's certain he'll get away with it. It's just everything is a copy, their 'Reverb' site which uses the same layout, colourways and typefaces as the actual site.

As for for what we know of Behringer himself, we can only judge by his company's actions as it's pretty much a one man privately held company, based on that it doesn't look great...
I don't think having a negative opinion Behringer is 'moralistic posturing', I just don't like the way they do business, from what I can see they're a predatory company. In most areas of our lives re technology whatever we think of corporations we're stuck with them. Music tech is a tiny niche in all this, but it's somewhere I can still make a choice, so I'm going to do that.
I'm not buying a maths though, not my idea of fun...

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Re: Behringer Swing

Post by M_Johnson » Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:24 pm

I have never purchased one single piece of gear that bears the Behringer name, nor would I ever. I would hope that anyone of good conscience would avoid them at all cost. This is theft pure and simple.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by strettara » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:50 am

Nelson Baboon wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:20 pm
you nicely chop stuff up into categories that fit with your condescending attitude
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Nelson Baboon wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:20 pm
given today's world, you really think that the only debate about someone's ethics should take place in court? I wasn't aware that law litigated ethics per se.
Nowhere did I make any such claim.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Orange » Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:22 am

This is no debate (anymore).
Some moralists over here mix up criticism and demonizing.
I am not yoda, but hmmm I sence a lot of fear, anger and hate.
Stay ok, be nice to other people, even if you disagree with their opinions or their way of life. Not an easy task, but try it ✌️.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by doombient.music » Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:11 am

It's about time to bring on in that Ted Nugent fellow for some extra bit of fun.

Stephen

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by dubonaire » Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:39 am

strettara wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:50 am
Nelson Baboon wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:20 pm
you nicely chop stuff up into categories that fit with your condescending attitude
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Nelson Baboon wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:20 pm
given today's world, you really think that the only debate about someone's ethics should take place in court? I wasn't aware that law litigated ethics per se.
Nowhere did I make any such claim.
You did make that inference, and I also think casting consumers’ distaste with company, which I share, as moralistic posturing to be passively aggressive and just wrong. You can find all sorts of logical argument but the company doesn’t pass the smell test. There is nothing attractive about Behringer in my view apart from the argued low pricing which the company is not alone in offering. And Uli or his PR team has made himself the very visible face of the company. When you do that, and you act aggressively and often immaturely, all bets are off. It’s his bed he has made for himself. He was in a position to make himself the most respected person in the industry and he has managed to make himself the least respected. That’s some achievement, and it’s not down to pettiness of others. The man was disliked, it looked he was beginning to turn that around, and then he just snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by strettara » Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:28 am

dubonaire wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:39 am
strettara wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:50 am
Nelson Baboon wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:20 pm
you nicely chop stuff up into categories that fit with your condescending attitude
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Nelson Baboon wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:20 pm
given today's world, you really think that the only debate about someone's ethics should take place in court? I wasn't aware that law litigated ethics per se.
Nowhere did I make any such claim.
You did make that inference, and I also think casting consumers’ distaste with company, which I share, as moralistic posturing to be passively aggressive and just wrong. You can find all sorts of logical argument but the company doesn’t pass the smell test. There is nothing attractive about Behringer in my view apart from the argued low pricing which the company is not alone in offering. And Uli or his PR team has made himself the very visible face of the company. When you do that, and you act aggressively and often immaturely, all bets are off. It’s his bed he has made for himself. He was in a position to make himself the most respected person in the industry and he has managed to make himself the least respected. That’s some achievement, and it’s not down to pettiness of others. The man was disliked, it looked he was beginning to turn that around, and then he just snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory.
My position was - and is - that businesses can take care of themselves in the courts. Nowhere would I make such a ridiculous claim as that "the only debate about someone's ethics should take place in court" or that the law litigates ethics per se. BTW -to be precise, it's you and NB who have mistakenly made an inference from what I said. I simply stated my position.

My point was that everyone is getting worked up - often, as I see it, just to join in a general atmosphere of completely inflated outrage that I really don't believe they actually genuinely feel - about a dispute between companies who have the means to settle it themselves. Have they ripped you off as a customer? Have they stolen your work? If not then why are you so enraged? I mean, I can understand disapproval - but outrage and pictures of Uli Behringer with "fucking cunt" written under them (and I know that flashheart has addressed that one)? I can't see the point, but have at it if that's what makes you feel good. I have no argument with where you decide to spend your money after all.

I mean, let's say someone ripped me off. I'd be angry about it. My friends would - hopefully! - disapprove. But then a complete stranger to either of us comes up and starts shouting "fucking cunt" about him - I'd really have to ask, what did he do to you? I might think he's a cunt myself, but why are you so worked up?

Behringer - meh. There are far worse companies. I can't imagine how angry you must be about them.

BTW - one thing that seems to have passed unnoticed in Behringer's published statement about Arturia and the Swing is that its full functionality - the "new art" it embodies - will become apparent when it is integrated with a free DAW they're going to be making available. I mean I have no idea whther that is true or not, but if it is, then the Swing is not just a straight copy without any added functionality. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by dubonaire » Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:44 am

I don't agree with the language being used by a few people, which is about as juvenile as that pathetic cartoon Behringer released in its clumsy attempt to put down the journalist who dares to criticize the company, which fortunately backfired. You don't have to call someone a fucking cunt to be an aggressive jerk on social media.

Most people commenting are not behaving that way, in the main they are saying what they don't like about the company. And they have every right to. You can't describe all this criticism as outrage. That is a confection itself. I don't like the company. I'm not outraged about it, I just won't buy its products, because apart from the fact that most of its products look like they were designed by failed design students* and they have a reputation for falling apart, the company is distasteful in almost every other way.

Do you honestly believe they released the Swing in that form as part of an integrated music making environment, and not to take market share from Arturia? :hmm: in my opinion this a deliberate strategy to dominate market share in emerging markets in which a Behringer already has deep penetration.

*They can't even do an exact replica of the Beatstep without making it less aesthetically pleasing. It must be a deliberate strategy to appear cheaper because I can't see how any other reason is plausible.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Blairio » Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:59 am

dubonaire wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:44 am

*They can't even do an exact replica of the Beatstep without making it less aesthetically pleasing. It must be a deliberate strategy to appear cheaper because I can't see how any other reason is plausible.
Perhaps the Beatstep design still falls within legal protection under 'Trade Dress'? If so then the Behringer homage would have to look significantly different?

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by strettara » Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:37 am

dubonaire wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:44 am
Do you honestly believe they released the Swing in that form as part of an integrated music making environment, and not to take market share from Arturia? :hmm: in my opinion this a deliberate strategy to dominate market share in emerging markets in which a Behringer already has deep penetration.
No I don't and I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop putting words in my mouth. I was pointing out that Behringer itself has claimed that, contrary to the accusation of unimaginative straight copying of other people's work, they are also innovating in these products. As I said, i have no idea if that's true or not, but that's what they say and until the DAW they've announced comes out we won't know. Personally I don't believe or disbelieve that claim because I have no information that either confirms or refutes it.

As for creating a dominant market share in emerging markets, come on. That's what business is all about. They would be failing in their duty to their shareholders not to have that as their strategic objective if they have the capacity to achieve it.

About the cartoon, btw, I thought it was quite witty and à propos. But that's just me.

Anyway I think I've made my view clear. I hope.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Red Electric Rainbow » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:08 am

im not a fanboy or a hater, but wow, i can’t imagine how bad a behringer DAW would be.
TOO FAR GONE

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by SynthBaron » Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:37 am

I think I've said it before, but the thought comes up in my head again...Behringer is really only competing against the price of software emulations of what they reissue.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Kattefjaes » Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:43 am

Red Electric Rainbow wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:08 am
im not a fanboy or a hater, but wow, i can’t imagine how bad a behringer DAW would be.
Babelton's going to be the best, bigly wonderful.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Peake » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:09 pm

Who needs politics to polarize and damage a community.
This is not the place I'd imagined it to be.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Red Electric Rainbow » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:10 pm

Kattefjaes wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:43 am
Red Electric Rainbow wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:08 am
im not a fanboy or a hater, but wow, i can’t imagine how bad a behringer DAW would be.
Babelton's going to be the best, bigly wonderful.
lol. they just barely got the RD8 firmware to sync properly. if anyway is worried about it, it isn’t ableton.
TOO FAR GONE

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Nelson Baboon » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:15 pm

Peake wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:09 pm
Who needs politics to polarize and damage a community.
is it really a "community" where you can only talk about certain things?

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by 3hands » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:21 pm

Nelson Baboon wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:15 pm
Peake wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:09 pm
Who needs politics to polarize and damage a community.
is it really a "community" where you can only talk about certain things?
I agree. Nothing damaged. Also nothing wrong with a spirited conversation. I think it’s important for a community to share things like this as it allows us to understand the person saying them. I think it’s great. I would buy a beer for anyone on this forum BECAUSE I feel I know them enough to consider them more than just a blip in a forum. Arguments within a community are incredibly important.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Koekepan » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:43 pm

Peake wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:09 pm
Who needs politics to polarize and damage a community.
This whole discussion effectively is about politics. Regulation of businesses (current, future or hypothetical) is a political topic, and if you read closely you'll see that many are applying their own moral codes to their analyses - again, a typical feature of politics.

"THEY need to run by MY preferred rules. There oughta be a law!"

Classic politics.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by flashheart » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:45 pm

strettara wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:37 am
As for creating a dominant market share in emerging markets, come on. That's what business is all about. They would be failing in their duty to their shareholders not to have that as their strategic objective if they have the capacity to achieve it.
Behringer has no shareholders, it's currently 100% privately held. They have talked about going public but hasn't it happened yet.
As for that 'being what business is about' it is if you're prime motivation is continued growth (which it would be with shareholders). I guess we'll just have to disagree on how they go about it.
I'm not buying a maths though, not my idea of fun...

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Kattefjaes » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:50 pm

3hands wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:21 pm
I agree. Nothing damaged. Also nothing wrong with a spirited conversation. I think it’s important for a community to share things like this as it allows us to understand the person saying them. I think it’s great. I would buy a beer for anyone on this forum BECAUSE I feel I know them enough to consider them more than just a blip in a forum. Arguments within a community are incredibly important.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by strettara » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:51 pm

SynthBaron wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:37 am
I think I've said it before, but the thought comes up in my head again...Behringer is really only competing against the price of software emulations of what they reissue.
That’s an interesting perspective. Well hopefully they can come up with a Bellotron for 200€.
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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by red » Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:00 pm

Moderators: Kent, Joe., luketeaford, lisa

Could you please move this thread to "General NON-SYNTH discussion. NSFW." - boring, boringer, ... Behringer is definitive not a "General Gear". THANKS

(this thread is like a big stone in the shoe)
red

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Nelson Baboon » Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:01 pm

Business ethics is not an oxymoron.

While pretty much anything can intersect with politics, i think that what we mean by it on this forum (and there isn't and couldn't be a workable exact definition) is when it gets into political parties, or current political issues. I don't think that people are talking about capitalism vs socialism in this thread, they are just talking about a business whose ethics seems more predatory than other music related manufacturers that we do business with. As such, I'd argue that it doesn't fall outside of the politics regulation on the forum.

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