Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

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ignatius
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Re: Behringer 2-voices SEM

Post by ignatius » Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:40 pm

they filed for the use of the name Oberheim as a trademark. kinda shitty imo. a clone is one thing.. but it's the guy's name.. shitty.

https://audionewsroom.net/2020/09/behri ... emark.html

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Re: Behringer 2-voices SEM

Post by Peake » Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:53 pm

Massively shitty.
This is not the place I'd imagined it to be.

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Re: Behringer 2-voices SEM

Post by Randy » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:31 pm

Dave Peck wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:59 pm
It's a good choice for Beh clone, but IMO the SEM is one synth that could really use a few changes rather than attempting a faithful clone. Like complete ADSR EGs, better mixer controls, and better modulation inputs on oscs & the filter. Like Oakley did with the ASV synth voice module. But having all the patch points can help with some of this. Really hope they get the sound right on this one.
Behringer is off my list, just can't handle the ethics of it. But that's just me. We went a different route, and from what we've been told, we got the sound right, but you'd need to build your own and it doesn't look like an SEM. The modules and the reSEMble panel use the same PCBs, and sound the same. They only differ in operation.



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Re: Behringer 2-voices SEM

Post by NeolithicElectrophones » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:49 pm

Randy wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:31 pm

Behringer is off my list, just can't handle the ethics of it. But that's just me. We went a different route, and from what we've been told, we got the sound right, but you'd need to build your own and it doesn't look like an SEM. The modules and the SEM panel use the same PCBs, and sound the same. They only differ in operation.
100% agree about the ethics of it. Hard to support anyone so shameless.


Was just about to plug John's and your work Randy. I built the reSEMble a few weeks back and can say after comparing to a friends two voice, it without a doubt sounds faithful and has tangibly real improvements. Love the wave-shaping circuit and modulator section.ADSRS are great as well and totally discreet! Also, since the videos have the modules and the older faceplate I figured it would be good to show off the build and its gorgeous newer rev white panel. Truly a pleasure to build and use. A very heartfelt thanks to both of you for getting this out there.
IMG_0692.jpg
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Re: Behringer 2-voices SEM

Post by Rex Coil 7 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:56 pm

ignatius wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:40 pm
they filed for the use of the name Oberheim as a trademark. kinda shitty imo. a clone is one thing.. but it's the guy's name.. shitty.

https://audionewsroom.net/2020/09/behri ... emark.html
... didn't Tom sign away the rights to his own name like twenty-odd years ago? Viscount? Kinda like what Bob Moog did which birthed Big Briar? Or something? Kinda cloudy up there in the old brain bucket ... old memories of something that I barely paid any attention to in the first place.
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Re: Behringer 2-voices SEM

Post by Randy » Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:11 am

NeolithicElectrophones wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:49 pm
Randy wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:31 pm

Behringer is off my list, just can't handle the ethics of it. But that's just me. We went a different route, and from what we've been told, we got the sound right, but you'd need to build your own and it doesn't look like an SEM. The modules and the SEM panel use the same PCBs, and sound the same. They only differ in operation.
100% agree about the ethics of it. Hard to support anyone so shameless.


Was just about to plug John's and your work Randy. I built the reSEMble a few weeks back and can say after comparing to a friends two voice, it without a doubt sounds faithful and has tangibly real improvements. Love the wave-shaping circuit and modulator section.ADSRS are great as well and totally discreet! Also, since the videos have the modules and the older faceplate I figured it would be good to show off the build and its gorgeous newer rev white panel. Truly a pleasure to build and use. A very heartfelt thanks to both of you for getting this out there.

IMG_0692.jpg
Thanks! Really good to hear about a successful build, and I am very happy to hear you are enjoying it.

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Re: Behringer 2-voices SEM

Post by stikygum » Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:20 pm

NeolithicElectrophones wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:49 pm
Randy wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:31 pm

Behringer is off my list, just can't handle the ethics of it. But that's just me. We went a different route, and from what we've been told, we got the sound right, but you'd need to build your own and it doesn't look like an SEM. The modules and the SEM panel use the same PCBs, and sound the same. They only differ in operation.
100% agree about the ethics of it. Hard to support anyone so shameless.


Was just about to plug John's and your work Randy. I built the reSEMble a few weeks back and can say after comparing to a friends two voice, it without a doubt sounds faithful and has tangibly real improvements. Love the wave-shaping circuit and modulator section.ADSRS are great as well and totally discreet! Also, since the videos have the modules and the older faceplate I figured it would be good to show off the build and its gorgeous newer rev white panel. Truly a pleasure to build and use. A very heartfelt thanks to both of you for getting this out there.
Just wondering what you guys think is bad about Behringer doing this? I'm not saying that I don't agree, but this really isn't any different than all the x0x knock offs out there and other clones. The only thing Mr. Oberheim has on his site these days is the OB-6. I'm not even sure he wants to spend the later part of his life building synths anymore. So at this point, I don't think Behringer is going to hurt Tom's company.

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Re: Behringer SEM 2-voice

Post by NeolithicElectrophones » Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:56 pm

Hey Stikygum,
FWIW I didn't say this was as bad as some of B's antics in the past. Maybe there was some confusion with how I quoted that made it seem like this project alone was a deal breaker. It's just that after said antics, I won't give them my money and would rather help out smaller independent designers and builders at this point. The cork sniffer pedal and surname trademark was what really put it over the edge for me. You have to be running a toxic company for people to think punching down like that is funny.

Same position with Arturia over the Synthi collab and Mutable cloners selling modules still in production. Thus the plug for PMF so that people could be aware of the reSEMble. If someone is craving the SEM sound and would dig a faithful recreation with improvements from the minds of awesome people we share the forum with then it is a fun project. Don't want to support B, win-win.

If B got Tom on board and announced that, then I think all is good. I'm in the camp that thinks vintage snob pearl clutchers can calm down over any of this. Originals will always hold more sentimental and collector value when cheap clones come out. If they have a problem with people storming their imaginary gear gates , then that is their problem. But I wouldn't conflate those snobs with people who don't dig B's shit head persona and tactics over the years. Outside of my day job I design various things in different media. Yet to run across a person who also creates, that thinks weaseling around fair attribution and compensation doesn't make you a shit head.

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Re: Behringer SEM 2-voice

Post by Randy » Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:28 pm

Many of the x0x knock-offs and other clones are low-volume, DIY things. They were never meant for mass distribution. In our case, we originally had a much closer clone designed, with similar functionality and a similar look. I sent a note to Tom and asked him if it was okay, and he forwarded the note to someone he's been working with for many years, who contacted me. We had a long phone conversation, and his take on Tom's take is that Tom didn't mind us using his ideas but wanted us to use them as a basis for something new and interesting. So we threw out the original design and started from scratch.

I don't necessarily blame Uli 'though, although I'm not impressed with him as a person. The real blame is on us. Are we so stuck in the past that someone like Uli has a market for his stolen designs!? And the answer appears to be, yup we are.

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Re: Behringer SEM 2-voice

Post by anselmi » Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:15 pm

Randy wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:28 pm
I don't necessarily blame Uli 'though, although I'm not impressed with him as a person. The real blame is on us. Are we so stuck in the past that someone like Uli has a market for his stolen designs!? And the answer appears to be, yup we are.
yeah sure, but this same behavior fed other people for years ... I mean people who made clones on a smaller scale and were highly praised by all of us. So without this "stuckness" in the past, this entire market would never have existed

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Re: Behringer SEM 2-voice

Post by EPTC » Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:28 pm

I was almost close to buying some of the Behringer 55 clone stuff (an $80 CP3 Mixer got me, nearly) but this move on Tom brought me back to the reality that they're really intentionally lousy.

Seriously, fuck this: https://audionewsroom.net/2020/09/behri ... emark.html

This is abusive and depressing. The manner in which they attack the actual creators of these synths is not defensible.

I'll gladly support the other SEM modules and Boomstar stuff.

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Re: Behringer 2-voices SEM

Post by m0d » Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:53 pm

stikygum wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:20 pm
Just wondering what you guys think is bad about Behringer doing this? I'm not saying that I don't agree, but this really isn't any different than all the x0x knock offs out there and other clones.
This has been their MO for about a quarter-century. Look into the Mackie v Behringer lawsuit. Mackie won then lost in appeal when the judge declared there was no legal protection for circuits and circuit board design. They then had the balls to clone another Mackie mixer.

By the way, it's no coincidence they opened their USA headquarters across town from Mackie's.
The only thing Mr. Oberheim has on his site these days is the OB-6. I'm not even sure he wants to spend the later part of his life building synths anymore. So at this point, I don't think Behringer is going to hurt Tom's company.
I don't understand how his age and what he's doing in the later part of his life are relevant. I'd hope anyone in that situation would do the same. Estates go after those that try this even after someone dies. If he sells it to them, then that's his business. Otherwise, he will have to protect it. I wonder if Behringer would have tried this if Gibson still owned the brand.

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Re: Behringer 2-voices SEM

Post by Voltcontrol » Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:57 am

m0d wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:53 pm

This has been their MO for about a quarter-century. Look into the Mackie v Behringer lawsuit. Mackie won then lost in appeal when the judge declared there was no legal protection for circuits and circuit board design. They then had the balls to clone another Mackie mixer.

By the way, it's no coincidence they opened their USA headquarters across town from Mackie's.
Xmit wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:38 am
I wish Behringher would just fucking stop with this.
I'm afraid your question has already been answered by historical evidence Xmit.

Anyways, the legitimacy and desirability of all things Uli has it's own thread, let's concentrate on the 2-Voice clone here.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=226390&p=3364882&hi ... y#p3364882
Gaun Yersel!

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Re: Behringer SEM 2-voice

Post by Randy » Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:33 am

anselmi wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:15 pm
Randy wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:28 pm
I don't necessarily blame Uli 'though, although I'm not impressed with him as a person. The real blame is on us. Are we so stuck in the past that someone like Uli has a market for his stolen designs!? And the answer appears to be, yup we are.
yeah sure, but this same behavior fed other people for years ... I mean people who made clones on a smaller scale and were highly praised by all of us. So without this "stuckness" in the past, this entire market would never have existed
That's true. It's not a good thing or a bad thing, it's just a thing. And scale is important here.

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Re: Behringer SEM 2-voice

Post by KSS » Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:46 am

Randy wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:28 pm
I sent a note to Tom and asked him if it was okay, and he forwarded the note to someone he's been working with for many years, who contacted me. We had a long phone conversation, and his take on Tom's take is that Tom didn't mind us using his ideas but wanted us to use them as a basis for something new and interesting. So we threw out the original design and started from scratch.
Considering that this is *exactly* what Tom himself did with ARP, it makes sense he would say this. He was an ARP distributor before he went into Oberheim production.
Hard not to see the ARP 'roots and branches' in the SEM.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Randy » Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:01 pm

I think at one time, everyone did this to some extent. It's quaint and dated I'll admit, but there seemed to be quite a bit more up-front sharing that went on back then.

We haven't noticed too much in common between the SEM and the ARP circuitry 'though. We recently completed restoring an Oberheim FVS and just today completed an Odyssey, and an Axxe and Little Brother before that. I'll need to revisit that.

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Re: Behringer SEM 2-voice

Post by diller » Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:19 pm

KSS wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:46 am
Randy wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:28 pm
I sent a note to Tom and asked him if it was okay, and he forwarded the note to someone he's been working with for many years, who contacted me. We had a long phone conversation, and his take on Tom's take is that Tom didn't mind us using his ideas but wanted us to use them as a basis for something new and interesting. So we threw out the original design and started from scratch.
Considering that this is *exactly* what Tom himself did with ARP, it makes sense he would say this. He was an ARP distributor before he went into Oberheim production.
Hard not to see the ARP 'roots and branches' in the SEM.
How is that exactly what Tom did?

He was also designing circuits for musicians in the LA since the late 50's and had several ground breaking designed products released under various brands before ARP was even a company including the guitar synthesizer. Tom didn't get any blessing from ARP to design SEM and unless you are talking about electrons I don't understand what connection you are trying to make to the designs.

Your post reads like you're making Tom out to be the world's first douche cloner or something. Quite the opposite.

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Re: Behringer 2-voices SEM

Post by ehafh » Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:52 pm

ignatius wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:40 pm
they filed for the use of the name Oberheim as a trademark. kinda shitty imo. a clone is one thing.. but it's the guy's name.. shitty.

https://audionewsroom.net/2020/09/behri ... emark.html
wow, incredible.

never going to repair Behringer products for people. let their products die.
they make some OK things for getting into music and that has a place, not in my life but this is just malicious.

oberheim made quality gear. confusing people with their made in china garbage is just low.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:04 pm

diller wrote:Your post reads like you're making Tom out to be the world's first douche cloner or something.
Not at all. I know and respect Tom O very much. My post was not about cloning; it was about deriving from those before you. Which Tom himself will tell you. In fact that's what the post I responded to said! And as has been posted here, the spirit of comaraderie among otherwise business 'competitors' was a thing back then. As it -mostly- remains to this day.

To answer your direct question, Tom did exactly what the underlined part of the quote says. He used the ideas of others as a basis for something new and interesting. That doesn't mean he didn't also use his own ideas.

Silly me. I wondered whether I should clarify in my reply that Tom built things before ARP, but I kinda figured that's pretty well known. I keep forgetting that today there's always somebody who's looking to take undue offense with *anything* said.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by diller » Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:47 pm

KSS wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:04 pm
diller wrote:Your post reads like you're making Tom out to be the world's first douche cloner or something.
Not at all. I know and respect Tom O very much. My post was not about cloning; it was about deriving from those before you. Which Tom himself will tell you. In fact that's what the post I responded to said! And as has been posted here, the spirit of comaraderie among otherwise business 'competitors' was a thing back then. As it -mostly- remains to this day.

To answer your direct question, Tom did exactly what the underlined part of the quote says. He used the ideas of others as a basis for something new and interesting. That doesn't mean he didn't also use his own ideas.

Silly me. I wondered whether I should clarify in my reply that Tom built things before ARP, but I kinda figured that's pretty well known. I keep forgetting that today there's always somebody who's looking to take undue offense with *anything* said.
I'm not offended but you are justifying other peoples questionable actions by saying Tom did *exactly* the same thing.

I've known Tom for a number of years and I have never heard of Tom speaking through some unnamed person for any reason, especially giving people blessings or permission to do XYZ with his work. Tom has replied to all his email directly since he has had email.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by KSS » Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:03 pm

No, I'm not justifying *anybody's* questionable actions. You're reading something into this that isn't there.

If you look again, you'll see that the quote I responded to was about someone doing the RIGHT thing. It wasn't about Behringer. At. All. It was about PMD, who DID ask Tom -as someone should. And about THEIR reply. Everything was about doing the right thing.

Which I then said Yeah, that makes sense. That's what Tom did too, so it fits that he'd want people to build on prior work and ideas rather than copy it. Which also fits with conversations I've had with him. All in keeping with the prior of it being the right thing.

How you came to see that as condoning someone's negative path I do not understand. And even if I did, it's completely off-base from what i said. And also in what I meant in saying it.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Rex Coil 7 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:11 pm

... dang ... if I had a nickel for all of the projection going on in this thread ... well ... I'd have a lot of nickels. (not aimed at you KSS, not even a little bit).
5U MODULAR NORMALIZING PROJECT (for your entertainment) viewtopic.php?t=78836&highlight=
.. given the choice between conformity and self respect, I choose the latter.
.. dominion - noun: control or the exercise of control . power . possessed and controlled domain . sovereignty . having dominion over the world . supreme authority . absolute ownership . power . authority . jurisdiction . control . command ... power ....... power .......... power.

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Re: Behringer 2-voices SEM

Post by Rex Coil 7 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:20 pm

Voltcontrol wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:57 am
m0d wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:53 pm

This has been their MO for about a quarter-century. Look into the Mackie v Behringer lawsuit. Mackie won then lost in appeal when the judge declared there was no legal protection for circuits and circuit board design. They then had the balls to clone another Mackie mixer.

By the way, it's no coincidence they opened their USA headquarters across town from Mackie's.
Xmit wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:38 am
I wish Behringher would just fucking stop with this.
I'm afraid your question has already been answered by historical evidence Xmit.

Anyways, the legitimacy and desirability of all things Uli has it's own thread, let's concentrate on the 2-Voice clone here.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=226390&p=3364882&hi ... y#p3364882
... this is the Behringer practices thread ... not the 2-Voice clone thread ... your link takes you right back to this same thread. Someone along the way fuddup and posted in the wrong thread .... I think strettara was smokin' them banana peels again ... note how on Oct 10th the reply is on practices ... then on Oct 28th (which was the very next post) strettara's post is somehow about the 2-Voice which changed the reply headers.

... stupid monkey .... :lol:
Woops - wrong thread - 01.jpg
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5U MODULAR NORMALIZING PROJECT (for your entertainment) viewtopic.php?t=78836&highlight=
.. given the choice between conformity and self respect, I choose the latter.
.. dominion - noun: control or the exercise of control . power . possessed and controlled domain . sovereignty . having dominion over the world . supreme authority . absolute ownership . power . authority . jurisdiction . control . command ... power ....... power .......... power.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by 22tape » Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:57 pm

3hands wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:10 pm
strettara wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:47 pm
At this point Behringer is just trolling the whole fartsniffing vintage goodness crowd :yay: :lol: It’s performance art for the nerdiest nerds in nerdland. :hail:
Haha I was having a discussion with someone about this, and this very thing came up. If it’s true, it’s epic.
Trolling is epic? Goals.

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Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Randy » Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:23 pm

Never mind.

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