Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Any music gear discussions that don't fit into one of the other forums.

Moderators: luketeaford, Joe., lisa, Kent

Post Reply
User avatar
SyndieBot2000XL
Common Wiggler
Posts: 219
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:45 pm
Location: Owe Hi-O

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by SyndieBot2000XL » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:34 pm

sandettie wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:28 pm
The Internet Of Beefs

"Almost none of these battles matter individually. Most mook-on-mook contests are witnessed, for the most part, only by a few friends and algorithms, and merit no overt notice in either Vox or Quillette. Beyond a local uptick in cortisol levels, individual episodes of mook-on-mook violence are of no consequence."

Beef on, you shining diamonds.
Thank you for posting this. Using the ludic frame of the MOBA to break down the online culture war is inspired.

But seeing someone behave in a bullying and bad-faith manner is always going to piss me off, and I’m not going to say nothing. Which makes me very susceptible to baiting, and frequently enough will lead me down the path of looking like an idiot lol-cow. Which is really fine with me. I’ll lose the game, and it won’t matter one jot.
Divinital wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:28 pm
I only comment on B stuff because it’s constantly active. There’s nothing else on these forums to talk about anymore, and I’d like to be a part of the conversation even if you don’t like me or what I say. All Behringer ethics now belong in this thread, literally nowhere else.

Saying a synth is shit doesn’t have to do with ethics anymore, it’s just me calling it shit luckily.
I’m sympathetic to that, and for the record I don’t dislike you or what you have to say. I think it’s a valid, even important, conversation to be had.

I really just can’t abide the way that one user goes about doing it, least of all because it’s flagrant rule flouting that hews *just* close enough to the line that the mods could be called heavy-handed for treating it like the concern-trolling that it appears to me to be. The overall tone of sanctimonious finger-wagging just absolutely gets up my ass - this approach is one reason many people have no patience for progressive ideas and as a progressive (leftward of that, even) it makes me want to rip my hair out by the roots. Never mind that it casts the classic profile of a Poe when you shine a little critical light on it. If it turned out said user was a longtime 4Channer I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised, his output quacks and waddles in that way.
It began as a mistake.

User avatar
SyndieBot2000XL
Common Wiggler
Posts: 219
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:45 pm
Location: Owe Hi-O

Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by SyndieBot2000XL » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:49 pm

coolshirtdotjpg wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:31 pm
The fact of the matter is that we live in an economic system that rewards Behringer's business practices, otherwise they wouldn't have survived for 30+ years, if you don't like that, don't blame Behringer, blame the system that allows for that kind of behavior.
Thank you for saying this much more eloquently than I could.

That said, I do think it’s fair game to criticize B; “the system that allows for that kind of behavior” is propagated and materially supported at a foundational level by everyone that buys in at any level. That’s the meaning of the phrase “No ethical consumption under capitalism”.

But it’s important to note that EVERY SINGLE ENTITY THAT PARTICIPATES IN THE MARKET IS IMPLICATED, so if you are going to critique one player, WE are ALL implicated. No one has clean hands in this, and to pretend otherwise is ignorant at best. This is why the “no politics” rule on this forum is really brilliant, if the mods could enforce it without banning the majority of active members: this debate just loses itself up its own ass because no side will ever actually “win” - we are all compromised.
It began as a mistake.

Divinital

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Divinital » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:56 pm


Be Sandy?
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 509
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:04 pm

Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Be Sandy? » Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:06 pm

Funch wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:33 pm
So let me recap.

"People have the right to post their views on this forum whether they are pro or anti Behringer" except people who are anti Behringer can only post their opinions in one segregated thread on the forum?
Their opinions about Behringer's practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy - yes.
It's not ideal, but it's what the admin/moderator team have been forced to do in large part due to your actions.
This thread isn't really the place for this discussion though so if you wish to continue PM me.

User avatar
mrhooks
Common Wiggler
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:15 pm

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by mrhooks » Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:47 pm

lilakmonoke wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:10 am
i hope im making sense.
Not entirely. First you talk about how you hate the standard things. Then you say it's perfectly okay to keep making them. Then you say something about living like prehistoric cavemen vs. modern consumerist pigs, seemingly ignoring the idea that most of us draw our line somewhere in between.
Arneb wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:16 am
You don't believe in 'should' and 'deserve', then go on explaining why you specifically deserve nice things.
It looks to me more like he explained how he went on to earn those nice things, rather than have the expectation that he should be able to afford them without effort.
coolshirtdotjpg wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:31 pm
Finally, if you care to do some research you will find that basically all of your favorite mom and pop eurorack companies use chips designed by... Behringer!
Not arguing, genuinely asking: were the chips designed by B, or manufactured? There's a big difference.
WTB: original MI Rings panel
Also looking for someone willing to make a couple small changes to Rings firmware

User avatar
luchog
Crazy Pony
Posts: 1104
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:57 pm
Location: The Emerald City

Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by luchog » Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:22 pm

coolshirtdotjpg wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:31 pm
luchog wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:46 pm
Big companies stealing from smaller ones? Sure, like Apple, Microsoft and many more. And if they can not steal from you they will buy you out of business.
So that makes it okay? Someone else did it, so there's no reason to do anything about it? Sorry, I just don't find tu quoque an adequate rationalization. There's no way to get away from Microsoft products if you work in the tech industry, it's entirely impossible; and for home I've only ever paid for two OSes, I've never purchased a single other piece of software from Microsoft. Again, because I don't have any real, viable choice in the matter given the lack of software ports for *NIX operating systems. The only Apple products I own are ones I've gotten for free (stuff being recycled from work), or on the used market, so I"m not giving them any of my money.
First off, tu qouque is only a fallacy if you are using syllogistic logic to argue the truth of a statement.
That's not the only context where it applies. Far from it. It applies to any situation where one is attempting to justify an action by referring to the similar or comparable actions of another party.
I'm personally not opposed to "stealing" ideas that have been known for 40/50 years in some cases. Are you opposed to generic drugs, for example?
Not even remotely a comparable situation, since drugs are protected very differently than circuits are. Drugs are only covered by patent law, and patents are designed to only protect a medication for a specific period of time, after which it becomes public domain, about 20 years. Intellectual property law is considerably different, and covers a wider time range, typically 75-100 years.

Personally, I'm opposed to stealing as a general rule, however people attempt to justify it. It's far too common in too many industries. It only hurts small creators, not larger ones. And in any case, why only at 40/50 years? What makes stealing work that old more acceptable than stealing work that's only 30 years old? Or 20? Or 10?

And it's not ideas that are being stolen, it's work, it's specific designs. When that's done with literature or research papers, it's called plagiarism, and rightly looked down on. Why would this be any different? Someone still put in the hard intellectual and practical work to create a functional design with specific characteristics.
The biggest issue is not that people have a problem with behringer, it's that they get high and mighty about it, and then assume that because they are rich enough to buy something fancier, they get to be smug and morally superior about it. That's basically everything wrong with modern "liberalism", where everyone poorer than you is immoral because they can't afford farm to table, or Moog designs (that are made in china anyway and use chinese manufactured parts).
Straw man and well poisoning fallacies. The issue that people have with Behringer is mainly their use of SLAPP suits to silence criticism of their products, and the highly variable quality of their products, which is the primary motivator for said criticism; and the fact that they have outright stolen designs from other companies, and been successfully sued, or settled suits, as a result. Their theft is a matter of public legal record, as are their attacks on critics.
You don't believe in 'should' and 'deserve', then go on explaining why you specifically deserve nice things.
Nope, that's another one of your straw man fallacies. Learn to read for comprehension instead of just making shit up.
Finally, if you care to do some research you will find that basically all of your favorite mom and pop eurorack companies use chips designed by... Behringer!
Not in my experience, no. My favorite small business and cottage designers use chips designed by Texas Instruments/Burr-Brown (which produces the overwhelming majority of OpAmps used in analog audio), THAT Corporation/Blackmer, Philips Semiconductors, Panasonic, and the now-defunct Reticon Corporation (good luck finding those). Can't find a single instance of a chip designed by Behringer, perhaps you'd be so good as to provide an example.
This is the point I keep trying to make, there is no way of getting away from sweatshops, and giant factories with bad labor practices, under the current economic system,
The point you keep trying to ignore, which I and others have been making, is that it's possible to reduce dependence on giant factories with bad labour practices, by cutting back on luxuries produced by said giant factories, and choosing to do business with more ethical manufacturers whenever and to the extent possible. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
you are totally delusional.
Speaking of delusional, maybe start reading what people are saying, instead of inventing straw man arguments, and you'll sound much less delusional yourself.
Maybe instead of spending the extra 400 dollars to feel pride in your moog or whatever, put that money towards a political candidate, or political movement that aims to reform the economic system that put us there.
False dichotomy fallacy. Supporting small businesses and cottage industries is important even when contributing to and supporting political campaigns to change the larger socio-economic issues. Doing large things does not preclude or invalidate doing small things at the same time.
There's nothing that annoys me more than people who think they can consume their way into a better world.
There are few things that annoy me more than straw man fallacies and claiming to know what other people's motives are.
Last edited by luchog on Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Divinital

Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by Divinital » Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:27 pm

luchog wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:22 pm
Not in my experience, no. My favorite small business and cottage designers use chips designed by Texas Instruments/Burr-Brown (which produces the overwhelming majority of OpAmps used in analog audio), THAT Corporation/Blackmer, Philips Semiconductors, Panasonic, and the now-defunct Reticon Corporation (good luck finding those). Can't find a single instance of a chip designed by Behringer, perhaps you'd be so good as to provide an example.
I'm one of the useless B haters, but there's a popular video on YouTube called "What's the deal with Behringer" or something posted a while ago by a guitar player, which mentions that even boutique pedal makers have to purchase components from Behringer because they have a monopoly on them.

B is gigantic. The synth market is the icing on the cake for their existence, they've been doing this in essentially every musical industry there is except for samplers, digital synths, and possibly a few others. They do make digital products though, like the electronic drum kit they probably stole from Roland (still in production), digital effects in their synths, etc.

I love the language of all the modern articles in the music industry, it's like they're reporting on the Middle East or some shit.

https://www.musictech.net/news/gear/beh ... namm-2020/

User avatar
luchog
Crazy Pony
Posts: 1104
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:57 pm
Location: The Emerald City

Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by luchog » Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:36 pm

Divinital wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:27 pm
luchog wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:22 pm
Not in my experience, no. My favorite small business and cottage designers use chips designed by Texas Instruments/Burr-Brown (which produces the overwhelming majority of OpAmps used in analog audio), THAT Corporation/Blackmer, Philips Semiconductors, Panasonic, and the now-defunct Reticon Corporation (good luck finding those). Can't find a single instance of a chip designed by Behringer, perhaps you'd be so good as to provide an example.
I'm one of the useless B haters, but there's a popular video on YouTube called "What's the deal with Behringer" or something posted a while ago by a guitar player, which mentions that even boutique pedal makers have to purchase components from Behringer because they have a monopoly on them.
I don't use pedals, so I can't say what chips they may or may not be using; but as far as synth manufacturers using chips designed by Behringer, that's clearly not the the case for the overwhelming majority of them, contrary to coolshirtdotjpg's claim. It's possible that some modular synth manufacturers may use Behringer clones of chips originally designed by TI, THAT, Philips, etc. but as far as I know those companies are still producing their own chips (well, except for Reticon, of course). THAT certainly does, and is one of the few left who still manufactures in the US. I do know that some DIYers and cottage manufacturers have complained about the quality of some of the Chinese clones/counterfeits of these chips, so it's possible that Behringer may be involved in some of the manufacturing.

User avatar
luchog
Crazy Pony
Posts: 1104
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:57 pm
Location: The Emerald City

Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by luchog » Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:45 pm

SyndieBot2000XL wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:49 pm
That said, I do think it’s fair game to criticize B; “the system that allows for that kind of behavior” is propagated and materially supported at a foundational level by everyone that buys in at any level. That’s the meaning of the phrase “No ethical consumption under capitalism”.

But it’s important to note that EVERY SINGLE ENTITY THAT PARTICIPATES IN THE MARKET IS IMPLICATED, so if you are going to critique one player, WE are ALL implicated. No one has clean hands in this, and to pretend otherwise is ignorant at best. This is why the “no politics” rule on this forum is really brilliant, if the mods could enforce it without banning the majority of active members: this debate just loses itself up its own ass because no side will ever actually “win” - we are all compromised.
The problem is that the system is the way it is, because the multi-million-dollar-corporations pay politicians to keep it that way. They contribute billions every year to lobbying efforts to ensure that politicians enact legislation to protect their profits, at the expense of the taxpayers; and structure their companies in such as way as to minimize or eliminate the taxes they pay. Music Tribe, Uli's umbrella corporation, is one of those mult-million-dollar corporations. The average modular synth manufacturer is not, and few are more than small cottage manufacturers.

This is not about "winning", this is about choosing not to spend one's money purchasing products from a company with clear and obvious ethical issues (above and beyond the economics of it), and who is a significant contributor to the problem globally.

User avatar
SyndieBot2000XL
Common Wiggler
Posts: 219
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:45 pm
Location: Owe Hi-O

Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by SyndieBot2000XL » Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:03 pm

luchog wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:45 pm
This is not about "winning", this is about choosing not to spend one's money purchasing products from a company with clear and obvious ethical issues (above and beyond the economics of it), and who is a significant contributor to the problem globally.
Oh, believe me, no one knows better than I do that it isn’t about winning.

This reminds me a bit of the beginning of Hitchikers Guide, when Arthur Dent lays down in front of the bulldozer and the construction supervisor asks him if he has any idea how much damage it will cause to the bulldozer if he tells the driver just to go ahead and plow him over.

I completely agree with everything you’ve said - and I think you and coolshirtdotjpg are much closer to each other than your disagreement would make it seem. But I think if something is to be done, boycott and other demand-side tactics aren’t going to be enough - the consumerist incentive is just too strong for too many, on top of the many that simply don’t care. I didn’t spend money at wal-mart or mcdonalds for six years in the 90’s and it did just as much damage to that particular bulldozer as Arthur’s protest lie-down. None whatsoever. There has to be top-down reform - earnest reform without the usual poison pills and pork barrel bullshit, or reform will eventually come from the bottom in the form of violent social upheaval of the established order. I have no love for capitalism, but I hate violence more, so for me it’s an easy choice - good Menshevik that I am :mrgreen:
It began as a mistake.

User avatar
luchog
Crazy Pony
Posts: 1104
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:57 pm
Location: The Emerald City

Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by luchog » Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:34 pm

SyndieBot2000XL wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:03 pm
luchog wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:45 pm
I completely agree with everything you’ve said - and I think you and coolshirtdotjpg are much closer to each other than your disagreement would make it seem. But I think if something is to be done, boycott and other demand-side tactics aren’t going to be enough - the consumerist incentive is just too strong for too many, on top of the many that simply don’t care.
Again, it's not about hurting the megacorps, nothing but legislation will do that. It's about not giving them more money to spend on hurting you, and instead giving it to more ethical businesses, or simply not spending it at all. I may not be able to change Apple or McDonald's by boycotting them, but I can ensure that I'm not helping them fund more legislation that will hurt me and people like me, to the extent that I can avoid doing so. Plus, Apple's latest products are complete crap; and McDonald's is barely edible (gimme 5 Guys burgers any day over that plastic crap McDonald's sells as food).

If I have the choice between spending $100 for a Behringer oscillator, or taking a few more months to save up for a $350 Joranalogue oscillator, I know which way I'm going. It may not change the world in my lifetime, but it will help support someone who more clearly deserves my support in this industry and community. And, again, one should not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Divinital

Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by Divinital » Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:12 pm

luchog wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:36 pm
Divinital wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:27 pm
luchog wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:22 pm
Not in my experience, no. My favorite small business and cottage designers use chips designed by Texas Instruments/Burr-Brown (which produces the overwhelming majority of OpAmps used in analog audio), THAT Corporation/Blackmer, Philips Semiconductors, Panasonic, and the now-defunct Reticon Corporation (good luck finding those). Can't find a single instance of a chip designed by Behringer, perhaps you'd be so good as to provide an example.
I'm one of the useless B haters, but there's a popular video on YouTube called "What's the deal with Behringer" or something posted a while ago by a guitar player, which mentions that even boutique pedal makers have to purchase components from Behringer because they have a monopoly on them.
I don't use pedals, so I can't say what chips they may or may not be using; but as far as synth manufacturers using chips designed by Behringer, that's clearly not the the case for the overwhelming majority of them, contrary to coolshirtdotjpg's claim. It's possible that some modular synth manufacturers may use Behringer clones of chips originally designed by TI, THAT, Philips, etc. but as far as I know those companies are still producing their own chips (well, except for Reticon, of course). THAT certainly does, and is one of the few left who still manufactures in the US. I do know that some DIYers and cottage manufacturers have complained about the quality of some of the Chinese clones/counterfeits of these chips, so it's possible that Behringer may be involved in some of the manufacturing.
I see what you are saying. Same clone story again, that’s probably how they developed a monopoly in the first place :bang:

I had just finished Mr. Robot a few weeks ago.

EVILCORP

User avatar
Peake
I'm in ur DIY. Filling cases with Buchla
Posts: 7076
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: Loss Angeles

Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Peake » Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:30 pm

brokensolderingiron wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:19 pm

No it does not, please define what common perception is , also define that in the context of what gear should cost relative FIAT's floating format
(i.e not linked to gold) and normal people have always been about lowest cost, A6 is a example of the opposite you claim . Pricing is just a
nobel price winners economists illusion not related to overall factual cost for manufacturing everything thats needed to.
The A6 Andromeda cost well over $1M to develop and deliver and was an absolute labor of love from a group of enthusiasts hoping to bring something good to the world. It took over five years of work. It helped turn attention back to analog (despite its flaws) and that helped influence majors such as Korg to reboot their own efforts and develop new analog gear.

Behringer seek to parasitize existing designs while cutting corners and bringing people to believe gear should only cost the sum total of a device's parts and assembly. They also interfere with companies such as Moog who now have less option to move into the Eurack field. They also interfere with passionate individuals who have single-handedly revived some vintage designs through a great deal of work and time and expense to do the finest possible clones. Behringer cut into their ability to continue and that's complete parasitism with zero concern for who it may harm.

To hell with Berhinger. All love to the passionate individuals and companies who are doing it right, for the right reasons, without whom we'd not have much at all.
This is not the place I'd imagined it to be.

User avatar
brokensolderingiron
Common Wiggler
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:52 pm

Re: Behringer System 55

Post by brokensolderingiron » Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:05 pm

Peake wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:30 pm
brokensolderingiron wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:19 pm

No it does not, please define what common perception is , also define that in the context of what gear should cost relative FIAT's floating format
(i.e not linked to gold) and normal people have always been about lowest cost, A6 is a example of the opposite you claim . Pricing is just a
nobel price winners economists illusion not related to overall factual cost for manufacturing everything thats needed to.
The A6 Andromeda cost well over $1M to develop and deliver and was an absolute labor of love from a group of enthusiasts hoping to bring something good to the world. It took over five years of work. It helped turn attention back to analog (despite its flaws) and that helped influence majors such as Korg to reboot their own efforts and develop new analog gear.
Yes we all know that story you and other Alesis employees told us like 20 years ago or so, no it didn't influence Korg at all it was Euro rack that put analog onto the map again and pushed the biggies to slowly get involved. But please try to define your previous claims you now so dearly try to avoid at all costs?
Behringer seek to parasitize existing designs while cutting corners and bringing people to believe gear should only cost the sum total of a device's parts and assembly.
Nope, Behringer is just doing what electronics industry always have done, as Bob Widlar once mentioned in an seminar speech in essence "nobody gives a crap about patents copyrights or anything else in the electronics industry". Thats why we have load of 2-3 part manufacturers of same chip, e,g TL072, etc.

I have not found a single corner cut on any of their chip remakes , please point them out so i can examine what it might be?
Redesign,manufacturing and process errors dont count.There is certainly not much of complaints on how Behringer synths sound.
They also interfere with companies such as Moog who now have less option to move into the Eurack field.
Moog have the same options to move into euro rack as any other manufacturer, they mot likely chose not to for other reasons.
Beyond that you have to complain to Bill Clinton who's they guy who opened the floodgates of cheap Chinese crap!
They also interfere with passionate individuals who have single-handedly revived some vintage designs through a great deal of work and time and expense to do the finest possible clones.

So its OK with you that individuals makes clones but not Bheringer? Thats quite a failure to follow your own expressed moral principles!
Behringer cut into their ability to continue and that's complete parasitism with zero concern for who it may harm.
While using Bhringers re manufactured classic chips in their cloned classics and PCB's made in China? Again Thats quite a failure to follow your own expressed moral principles!

Bheringer just try to justify their investments, its all brute force economics standard business practices in the electronics commodities
industry the real issue are a bunch of emotional musicians entangling their emotions and crocked moral/ethics into everything else.
To hell with Berhinger. All love to the passionate individuals and companies who are doing it right, for the right reasons, without whom we'd not have much at all.
:lol: Yes to hell with Bheringer/CoolAudio/Alfarpar etc whos remanufacturing of classic chips used by all those individual small scale companies for their well being and progress and flourishing success! The irony Micke, the irony!
Last edited by brokensolderingiron on Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:24 pm, edited 4 times in total.

User avatar
Peake
I'm in ur DIY. Filling cases with Buchla
Posts: 7076
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: Loss Angeles

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Peake » Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:12 pm

Thank you for reinforcing to me that Behringer fans are as toxic as are Behringer themselves. The self-interest at the expense of the community, grates.
This is not the place I'd imagined it to be.

User avatar
coolshirtdotjpg
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1451
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 4:13 pm
Location: Freedom, NH

Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by coolshirtdotjpg » Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:13 pm

luchog wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:22 pm
coolshirtdotjpg wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:31 pm
luchog wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:46 pm
Big companies stealing from smaller ones? Sure, like Apple, Microsoft and many more. And if they can not steal from you they will buy you out of business.
So that makes it okay? Someone else did it, so there's no reason to do anything about it? Sorry, I just don't find tu quoque an adequate rationalization. There's no way to get away from Microsoft products if you work in the tech industry, it's entirely impossible; and for home I've only ever paid for two OSes, I've never purchased a single other piece of software from Microsoft. Again, because I don't have any real, viable choice in the matter given the lack of software ports for *NIX operating systems. The only Apple products I own are ones I've gotten for free (stuff being recycled from work), or on the used market, so I"m not giving them any of my money.
First off, tu qouque is only a fallacy if you are using syllogistic logic to argue the truth of a statement.
That's not the only context where it applies. Far from it. It applies to any situation where one is attempting to justify an action by referring to the similar or comparable actions of another party.
I'm personally not opposed to "stealing" ideas that have been known for 40/50 years in some cases. Are you opposed to generic drugs, for example?
Not even remotely a comparable situation, since drugs are protected very differently than circuits are. Drugs are only covered by patent law, and patents are designed to only protect a medication for a specific period of time, after which it becomes public domain, about 20 years. Intellectual property law is considerably different, and covers a wider time range, typically 75-100 years.

Personally, I'm opposed to stealing as a general rule, however people attempt to justify it. It's far too common in too many industries. It only hurts small creators, not larger ones. And in any case, why only at 40/50 years? What makes stealing work that old more acceptable than stealing work that's only 30 years old? Or 20? Or 10?

And it's not ideas that are being stolen, it's work, it's specific designs. When that's done with literature or research papers, it's called plagiarism, and rightly looked down on. Why would this be any different? Someone still put in the hard intellectual and practical work to create a functional design with specific characteristics.
The biggest issue is not that people have a problem with behringer, it's that they get high and mighty about it, and then assume that because they are rich enough to buy something fancier, they get to be smug and morally superior about it. That's basically everything wrong with modern "liberalism", where everyone poorer than you is immoral because they can't afford farm to table, or Moog designs (that are made in china anyway and use chinese manufactured parts).
Straw man and well poisoning fallacies. The issue that people have with Behringer is mainly their use of SLAPP suits to silence criticism of their products, and the highly variable quality of their products, which is the primary motivator for said criticism; and the fact that they have outright stolen designs from other companies, and been successfully sued, or settled suits, as a result. Their theft is a matter of public legal record, as are their attacks on critics.
You don't believe in 'should' and 'deserve', then go on explaining why you specifically deserve nice things.
Nope, that's another one of your straw man fallacies. Learn to read for comprehension instead of just making shit up.
Finally, if you care to do some research you will find that basically all of your favorite mom and pop eurorack companies use chips designed by... Behringer!
Not in my experience, no. My favorite small business and cottage designers use chips designed by Texas Instruments/Burr-Brown (which produces the overwhelming majority of OpAmps used in analog audio), THAT Corporation/Blackmer, Philips Semiconductors, Panasonic, and the now-defunct Reticon Corporation (good luck finding those). Can't find a single instance of a chip designed by Behringer, perhaps you'd be so good as to provide an example.
This is the point I keep trying to make, there is no way of getting away from sweatshops, and giant factories with bad labor practices, under the current economic system,
The point you keep trying to ignore, which I and others have been making, is that it's possible to reduce dependence on giant factories with bad labour practices, by cutting back on luxuries produced by said giant factories, and choosing to do business with more ethical manufacturers whenever and to the extent possible. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
you are totally delusional.
Speaking of delusional, maybe start reading what people are saying, instead of inventing straw man arguments, and you'll sound much less delusional yourself.
Maybe instead of spending the extra 400 dollars to feel pride in your moog or whatever, put that money towards a political candidate, or political movement that aims to reform the economic system that put us there.
False dichotomy fallacy. Supporting small businesses and cottage industries is important even when contributing to and supporting political campaigns to change the larger socio-economic issues. Doing large things does not preclude or invalidate doing small things at the same time.
There's nothing that annoys me more than people who think they can consume their way into a better world.
There are few things that annoy me more than straw man fallacies and claiming to know what other people's motives are.
You don't seem to comprehend the fact that pointing out your inconsistencies is not about proving a point about behringer, it's about showing how pointless not purchasing behringer is as a form of ethical intervention. Especially when you hypocritically buy from other companies that do the same thing. No it doesn't change Behringer's moral standing, but considering that I am talking about ethical buying behavior and not the objective moral status of Behringer, you are actually making a straw man argument, and again, tu quoque doesn't apply because it's not a situation where I'm saying, eat healthy makes you lose weight while eating a hamburger. I am saying that you acting morally superior about something arbitrary.What is extra funny is that, you then make the argument that Moog is good because they are better than Behringer, so you are dismissing Moog's PCB manufacture because of what Behringer is doing? Tu Quoque much?!! Coolaudio chips are made by behringer. Also, are you claiming that TI integrated circuits are made in the US, as well as PCBs and resistors? Please enlighten me.

You are really bad at applying logic and somehow think throwing around logical fallacies outside of their proper context means you "win" your argument (hilariously, you are making straw man arguments, in your claims about my supposed straw man argument). I am done having this conversation with you.
Last edited by coolshirtdotjpg on Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
New video on Prophet 12 Drone Patches:
Prophet 12 Drone Patches

User avatar
brokensolderingiron
Common Wiggler
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:52 pm

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by brokensolderingiron » Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:16 pm

Peake wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:12 pm
Thank you for reinforcing to me that Behringer fans are as toxic as are Behringer themselves. The self-interest at the expense of the community, grates.
I'm not a Bheringer fan....that's your 3'd assumption and gross mistake! So in essence you accusing people for being Behringer wankers while your
self a Moog wanker? Seams you lost your ability for "real debate" instead become a fanboi! Its saad covfefe! :hihi:
Last edited by brokensolderingiron on Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
coolshirtdotjpg
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1451
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 4:13 pm
Location: Freedom, NH

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by coolshirtdotjpg » Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:18 pm

Also, the idea that you are going to individually stop exploitation by buying slightly less ethically bad moog products, is so stupid I don't even want to critique it. Why you do something more productive like stopping global warming by squirting super soakers at the sun?
New video on Prophet 12 Drone Patches:
Prophet 12 Drone Patches

User avatar
Peake
I'm in ur DIY. Filling cases with Buchla
Posts: 7076
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: Loss Angeles

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Peake » Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:40 pm

That we must have this ethics conversation speaks volumes alone, due to those who couldn't give less than a shit about it.

I'd far prefer Korg invest in and re-release quality vintage kit than Behringer and their lowest-common-denominator model. Korg (and others at every level of the field) might balk at continuing to create and re-create such gear as it might become not worth it. That's the point. And yes, obviously it's an "LOL" to some people which certainly does nothing to build the community. There is no more to say.
This is not the place I'd imagined it to be.

User avatar
brokensolderingiron
Common Wiggler
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:52 pm

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by brokensolderingiron » Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:47 pm

Peake wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:40 pm
That we must have this ethics conversation speaks volumes alone, due to those who couldn't give less than a shit about it.

I'd far prefer Korg invest in and re-release quality vintage kit than Behringer and their lowest-common-denominator model. Korg (and others at every level of the field) might balk at continuing to create and re-create such gear as it might become not worth it. That's the point. And yes, obviously it's an "LOL" to some people which certainly does nothing to build the community. There is no more to say.
So now you know in before hand that Behringer 2600 is crap! What if Korg 2600 and B2600 and TTHS simply is 3 different markets, did that ever strike your mind? Still havent proofed your previous claims time for your---> :foul:

Divinital

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Divinital » Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:01 pm

Discussing Behringer changing their ways or wishing they’d stop is absurd when you think about it.

Nothing can stop them and they’ll continue on no matter what, that ship has sailed. All the anti-Behringer heads like myself should just collect all the non-B synths they can, they’ll be worth an absolute unit once they’re all out of business. Buy second hand to quicken everyone’s demise.

I just made a nice bass patch on my non-B, it was fun.

User avatar
onthebandwagon
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2200
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:53 am
Location: jersey

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by onthebandwagon » Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:07 pm

I like funch. Is he in hiding?
“no matter how fine you grind the dead meat, you’ll not bring it to life again“

User avatar
mrhooks
Common Wiggler
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:15 pm

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by mrhooks » Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:41 pm

coolshirtdotjpg wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:18 pm
Also, the idea that you are going to individually stop exploitation by buying slightly less ethically bad moog products,
Who made that claim, and where?
Divinital wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:01 pm
Discussing Behringer changing their ways or wishing they’d stop is absurd when you think about it.

Nothing can stop them and they’ll continue on no matter what, that ship has sailed.
How we choose to spend our money has little to do with singlehandedly effecting change, or being personally economically practical. Some people feel better about doing their part, insignificant as it may be, rather than just being defeatist. I can respect that (even though I'm just as unlikely to buy B because of its reputation as shoddy knockoff crap, which I guess makes me a bit of a label whore) a lot more than I can the "I do what benefits me and me alone" attitude.

Talking about it is pointless, as nobody is going to change his mind. But it's fun to watch two people accuse each other of being illogical, as the illogical person is incapable of identifying his own illogic. :popcorn:
WTB: original MI Rings panel
Also looking for someone willing to make a couple small changes to Rings firmware

User avatar
coolshirtdotjpg
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1451
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 4:13 pm
Location: Freedom, NH

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by coolshirtdotjpg » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:03 pm

This thread is stupid because someone started applying logical fallacies to people calling him a hypocrite. Logic cannot be applied to morals, and no I'm not going to debate that in a synth forum. I'm really glad all the stupidity on this forum is quarantined to one place.


OH NO AD HOMINEM!!! LOOK EVERYONE I READ THE WIKIPEDIA PAGE ON FALLACIES!!!!!! :sstorm:
New video on Prophet 12 Drone Patches:
Prophet 12 Drone Patches

User avatar
coolshirtdotjpg
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1451
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 4:13 pm
Location: Freedom, NH

Re: Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by coolshirtdotjpg » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:07 pm

mrhooks wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:41 pm
coolshirtdotjpg wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:18 pm
Also, the idea that you are going to individually stop exploitation by buying slightly less ethically bad moog products,
Who made that claim, and where?
Screen Shot 2020-01-20 at 5.04.38 PM.png
Yes, I used moog as a synecdoche for the general point being made here. Nobody would say it the way I said because they prefer to obfuscate how dumb their argument is.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
New video on Prophet 12 Drone Patches:
Prophet 12 Drone Patches

Post Reply

Return to “General Gear”