Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Any music gear discussions that don't fit into one of the other forums.

Moderators: Joe., lisa, luketeaford, Kent

Post Reply
Be Sandy?
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 509
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:04 pm

Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy.

Post by Be Sandy? » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:09 pm

Edit 2:

Some guidelines:

People signing up to just to stir shit in this thread will not be tolerated. If you believe someone is doing this please use the report thread feature rather than engaging them.

Behaviour expectations and rules in this thread are the same as the rest of the forum.

If you don't like the thread just don't read it!



Edit:

Ok, let's try again!
This time it's Behringer specific and not in off topic.
Please use this thread to discuss your views on Behringer's business practices, morals/ethics.

As before, posts on this topic in threads relating to the discussion of particular pieces of equipment may be moved here at the moderators' discretion to keep discussion on topic there.

Again as before, we'll largely leave you to it to discuss the topic(s) at hand here but please keep it civil. "Fuck you" (or equivalent) is not a valid response to another user's opinion. Ethics can be an interesting topic. Please make this thread reflect that rather than turn into a shitshow that we have to lock. It's up to you. Sometimes no response can be a better option than a hastily typed reply in the heat of the moment.


Original text here:
A place to discuss the ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers - and no, I don't just mean the B word here!
Posts on this topic in threads relating to the discussion of particular pieces of equipment may be moved here at the moderators' discretion to keep discussion on topic there.
We'll largely leave you to it to discuss the topic(s) at hand here but please keep it civil. "Fuck you" (or equivalent) is not a valid response to another user's opinion. Ethics can be an interesting topic. Please make this thread reflect that rather than turn into a shitshow that we have to lock. It's up to you. Sometimes no response can be a better option than a hastily typed reply in the heat of the moment.

User avatar
luchog
Crazy Pony
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:57 pm
Location: The Emerald City

Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by luchog » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:46 pm

From the Behringer thread, since it doesn't really belong there at this point:
seta666 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:14 pm
luchog wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:48 pm
While having System 100 stuff would be fun, no way I'm touching the Behringer clones. For starters, I'd be seriously worried about the build quality. Uli has a long history of dumping cheaply-made junk on the market that just doesn't hold up to serious use, and often has problems right out of the box; not to mention the lackluster support they give for their products. Little better than toys, not gear for the serious musician.

Plus, I don't see a good reason to give any more of my money to multi-million-dollar megacorps than I absolutely have to; particularly one that has such a well-documented history of stealing product designs, and trying to silence critics with SLAPP suits. Not when there are so many better quality alternatives available at an only-moderately-higher price point (Doepfer, Ladik, EMW, etc).

I guess I'm just not as prone to the nostalgia factor as others seem to be.
Behringer quality is more than fine, I had Neutron and build quality was better than some other modules I own.
A bit of research shows that they have had numerous quality control problems, and are something of an industry joke because of it. I rarely see anything substantially positive about them from actual working musicians and engineers.

More than that, however, it's their treatment of smaller manufacturers, designers, and critics that put me off doing business with them.
Big companies stealing from smaller ones? Sure, like Apple, Microsoft and many more. And if they can not steal from you they will buy you out of business.
So that makes it okay? Someone else did it, so there's no reason to do anything about it? Sorry, I just don't find tu quoque an adequate rationalization. There's no way to get away from Microsoft products if you work in the tech industry, it's entirely impossible; and for home I've only ever paid for two OSes, I've never purchased a single other piece of software from Microsoft. Again, because I don't have any real, viable choice in the matter given the lack of software ports for *NIX operating systems. The only Apple products I own are ones I've gotten for free (stuff being recycled from work), or on the used market, so I"m not giving them any of my money.
I personally preffer to have behringer stuff in my rack than anything with Roland logo on it, but that may just be me.
I prefer to have neither one; and in fact, I have neither one. Metasonix, Steady State Fate, Ladik, Doepfer, Pulp Logic, Syinsi, bubblesound, Random*Source, ar.c, Verbos, IME, STS, Low-Gain Electronics, and Zorx. Not a Behringer or Roland product in the lot.

It's impossible to entirely get away from supporting the megacorps, given just how much of the world they ownk and how many better folks they've driven out of business with predatory practices -- especially when it comes to necessities -- but it's always worthwhile to support small businesses and cottage industries over the megacorps whenever doing so is possible to do so. And in the Eurorack world, it's very possible to do so.

The argument is made that buying things like the cheap Behringer clones isn't going to drive cottage-industry manufacturers out of business; but in fact, it can. Every dollar spent on a Behringer module is a dollar not spent on a boutique module; and most of the boutique manufacturers are running on very tight margins, and often do not make a decent living from their products. Others who have been around longer than I have, have remarked on how underpriced most Eurorack gear is already, compared to other formats.

And that's not even bringing up the issue of prison labour in Chinese factories; which is, again, hard to get away from while we're stuck buying electronic goods from megacorps.

User avatar
blw
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 253
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:30 pm

Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by blw » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:54 pm

I have a question:

A lot of us have irrational attachments to our instruments. We often have strong affiliations with our brands and enjoy personal connections or conversations with their creators.

Framed in that context, my question is does it bother Behringer fans that they may not be able to ever meet the builder of their Behringer instrument because he or she may in fact be a forced or low wage laborer who rarely if ever leaves the factory? Follow-up question: has everyone inspected the insides of their Neutrons and cheap as chips Model D’s for desperate pleas for help written in broken English?

Thanks for your thoughts. :lol:

Image
Last edited by blw on Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Muzone
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 666
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 3:30 pm
Location: London

Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by Muzone » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:08 pm

When there are major companies with products that destroy the the environment and poison their users I feel a moral obligation to avoid them.
The copycatting of electronic circuits used to make music is so far down the scale of "things I want to make a stand against" that I don't have the slightest problem buying what I can afford and actually feel quite good about "cheap copies" making music more accessible.

User avatar
thispoison
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1030
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:26 am

Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by thispoison » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:17 pm

This will be a long thread, with many opinions, but little disagreement.

This is the future.
Where have I seen you before?
Same place you saw me, I expect.
I've got a good face for memories.

https://soundcloud.com/thispoison-1

User avatar
onthebandwagon
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1851
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:53 am
Location: jersey

Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by onthebandwagon » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:32 pm

I don’t like the company in question but the real benefit of this thread is for people who have trouble falling asleep... just put a John Tesh cd on and start to read the first couple of posts here, and you’ll be surfing the saw waves 💤 to oblivion in no time.
“no matter how fine you grind the dead meat, you’ll not bring it to life again“

User avatar
GuyaGuy
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1637
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:49 am
Location: Brooklyn | NY | USA

Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by GuyaGuy » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:46 pm

luchog wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:46 pm
From the Behringer thread, since it doesn't really belong there at this point:
seta666 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:14 pm
luchog wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:48 pm
While having System 100 stuff would be fun, no way I'm touching the Behringer clones. For starters, I'd be seriously worried about the build quality. Uli has a long history of dumping cheaply-made junk on the market that just doesn't hold up to serious use, and often has problems right out of the box; not to mention the lackluster support they give for their products. Little better than toys, not gear for the serious musician.

Plus, I don't see a good reason to give any more of my money to multi-million-dollar megacorps than I absolutely have to; particularly one that has such a well-documented history of stealing product designs, and trying to silence critics with SLAPP suits. Not when there are so many better quality alternatives available at an only-moderately-higher price point (Doepfer, Ladik, EMW, etc).

I guess I'm just not as prone to the nostalgia factor as others seem to be.
Behringer quality is more than fine, I had Neutron and build quality was better than some other modules I own.
A bit of research shows that they have had numerous quality control problems, and are something of an industry joke because of it. I rarely see anything substantially positive about them from actual working musicians and engineers.

More than that, however, it's their treatment of smaller manufacturers, designers, and critics that put me off doing business with them.
Big companies stealing from smaller ones? Sure, like Apple, Microsoft and many more. And if they can not steal from you they will buy you out of business.
So that makes it okay? Someone else did it, so there's no reason to do anything about it? Sorry, I just don't find tu quoque an adequate rationalization. There's no way to get away from Microsoft products if you work in the tech industry, it's entirely impossible; and for home I've only ever paid for two OSes, I've never purchased a single other piece of software from Microsoft. Again, because I don't have any real, viable choice in the matter given the lack of software ports for *NIX operating systems. The only Apple products I own are ones I've gotten for free (stuff being recycled from work), or on the used market, so I"m not giving them any of my money.
I personally preffer to have behringer stuff in my rack than anything with Roland logo on it, but that may just be me.
I prefer to have neither one; and in fact, I have neither one. Metasonix, Steady State Fate, Ladik, Doepfer, Pulp Logic, Syinsi, bubblesound, Random*Source, ar.c, Verbos, IME, STS, Low-Gain Electronics, and Zorx. Not a Behringer or Roland product in the lot.

It's impossible to entirely get away from supporting the megacorps, given just how much of the world they ownk and how many better folks they've driven out of business with predatory practices -- especially when it comes to necessities -- but it's always worthwhile to support small businesses and cottage industries over the megacorps whenever doing so is possible to do so. And in the Eurorack world, it's very possible to do so.

The argument is made that buying things like the cheap Behringer clones isn't going to drive cottage-industry manufacturers out of business; but in fact, it can. Every dollar spent on a Behringer module is a dollar not spent on a boutique module; and most of the boutique manufacturers are running on very tight margins, and often do not make a decent living from their products. Others who have been around longer than I have, have remarked on how underpriced most Eurorack gear is already, compared to other formats.

And that's not even bringing up the issue of prison labour in Chinese factories; which is, again, hard to get away from while we're stuck buying electronic goods from megacorps.
Ethics surrounding circuits have always been somewhat ambiguous, whether in Euro or the pedal world.

1. A lot of Euro makers have modules made in China. Behringer is large enough to have its own factory but Euro makers having modules made there generally will outsource. Which is to say the cottage industry isn't as cottagey as it may seem.

2. Outsourcing to China is why some Euro is so cheap--or cheaper than it would be if made in the US, Canada, or Europe. Behringer can do this at a larger scale and offer Euro for even cheaper. (Of course prices can be lower because of lower quality parts but that's TBD with Beheringer's modules.) Yet few have complained that these cheaper outsourced models threaten the business of Doepfer.

3. A lot of Euro makers base their designs on existing circuits, some available from the original makers--Roland and Moog filters, Buchla style LPGs, Serge style wavefolders, etc. There seems to be a double standard for smaller vs larger companies who make clones and variations. In fact, a lot the makers now touted as originators started off making clones or variations, e.g. Bob Moog making Theremins.

This isn't a wholesale defense of Behringer or any other company. (I don't know how anyone can view their case against forum posters as anything but shitty.) It's just bringing up some counterpoints showing that it's not as simple as supporting small originators.

User avatar
luchog
Crazy Pony
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:57 pm
Location: The Emerald City

Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by luchog » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:47 pm

blw wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:54 pm
I have a question:

A lot of us have irrational attachments to our instruments. I for one have been temperamental enough to sell off modules even as a result of little personality squabbles. And I’ve enjoyed personal connections or conversations with their creators. I see this a lot in the Serge and Buchla world—being able to call Curtis St and have Don Buchla pick up the phone was a memorable experience for many Buchla fans, say—but we develop affiliations with other brands and even friendships with their builders.
For me, I've never really concerned myself much with "connections with the builders"; since I'm not really a sociable sort in real life anyway.

However, to me it makes a huge difference in deciding who to support when the designers and builders are actually part of the community. When their purpose isn't solely to make money, but also to share their creative and original work with like-minded individuals. People who actually are creative, trying to do something new, or take something old and make something better, instead of just flooding the market with whatever they think is popular in order to cash in and make a quick buck. When creators are closely involved with the community, as so many in the modular synthesizer world are, you can see their passion for what they do. Particularly when so many got their start just DIY-ing their own gear when the commercial stuff was unavailable or too expensive.

Yes, there are a lot of clones of popular circuits out there -- a myriad of 4-pole transistor ladder filters, 808-style kick drums, Buchla-style LPGs, and so on -- that don't properly credit or reward the innovators; but there're also a lot of really clever updates on classic circuits, and even entirely new stuff that never existed before. That's what makes formats like Eurorack so vibrant and popular. And it's nearly all coming from small, cottage, "one guy in his garage" sort of businesses. There are some larger businesses, of course, like Doepfer and Intellijel, but these are also guys who started out as cottage manufacturers, who were pioneers when analog modular when just starting to see its revival; and have largely kept innovating since then. Even more, they're still connected to the community.

That's the big problem I have with folks like Behringer. They're not doing anything innovative (they may have at one point, but those days are long since past). They're taking other peoples's work, making low-quality copies, and treating the results like disposable commodities. They're not in it because they care about their products and the community, they're only in it to make a lot of money by pandering to impulse-buying, throw-away, late-stage consumerist culture and myopic nostalgia. if you look at the hype around Behringer's latest release, nearly all of it is based on that sense of commodified nostalgia, the "I can have this classic for cheap" attitude, before they've even had a chance to find out how the stuff actually sounds.

Not that Behringer is the only problem here, far from it. I was around back in the '80s when Yamaha released the DX7. It wasn't really a direct clone of anything previous, but it's entire purpose was to be a cheap, disposable alternative to the big analog synths. They flooded the market, and soon the "DX7 sound" had infested the music industry. It sounded like crap; because while it was one of the first to do FM synthesis, it didn't do it well, and it was ridiculously difficult to change anything. But it was so cheap, so widely available, and had so many preset sounds, that it almost single-handedly drove more interesting analog synths off the market for over a decade (not the only culprit there, but certainly the biggest).

User avatar
luchog
Crazy Pony
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:57 pm
Location: The Emerald City

Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by luchog » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:55 pm

GuyaGuy wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:46 pm
This isn't a wholesale defense of Behringer or any other company. (I don't know how anyone can view their case against forum posters as anything but shitty.)
And all else being equal, that right there would be enough for me to refuse to do business with them. Just like I refuse to buy any more Synthrotek products, for reasons that have been discussed elsewhere on Muff.
It's just bringing up some counterpoints showing that it's not as simple as supporting small originators.
As I noted, there are trade-offs. That's unavoidable in the world we live in right now. But there are still a large number of manufacturers building their own gear in their own shops, and don't outsource to China any more than is strictly necessary. Allowances need to be made, given that the Chinese prison-labour-based industry has effectively driven nearly all American and European fabs out of business, so there aren't a whole lot of alternatives available for complex and difficult processes like PCB manufacturing.

User avatar
GuyaGuy
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1637
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:49 am
Location: Brooklyn | NY | USA

Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by GuyaGuy » Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:05 pm

luchog wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:55 pm
GuyaGuy wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:46 pm
This isn't a wholesale defense of Behringer or any other company. (I don't know how anyone can view their case against forum posters as anything but shitty.)
And all else being equal, that right there would be enough for me to refuse to do business with them. Just like I refuse to buy any more Synthrotek products, for reasons that have been discussed elsewhere on Muff.
It's just bringing up some counterpoints showing that it's not as simple as supporting small originators.
As I noted, there are trade-offs. That's unavoidable in the world we live in right now. But there are still a large number of manufacturers building their own gear in their own shops, and don't outsource to China any more than is strictly necessary. Allowances need to be made, given that the Chinese prison-labour-based industry has effectively driven nearly all American and European fabs out of business, so there aren't a whole lot of alternatives available for complex and difficult processes like PCB manufacturing.
Oof, I hadn't heard about the Synthrotek drama...

Yeah there are definitely lots of makers who manufacture their own in their garage soldering point to point or have a small team. But I'm guessing even then most of their parts come from China. Same goes for US-made Sequential and Moog synths.

User avatar
Gringo Starr
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2239
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:33 pm
Location: United States

Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by Gringo Starr » Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:19 pm

Be careful what you say guys. You might get sued.
Weed only gives you the illusion that it’s enhancing your creativity.

p_shoulder
Common Wiggler
Posts: 85
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:33 am

Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by p_shoulder » Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:05 pm

GuyaGuy wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:46 pm
1. A lot of Euro makers have modules made in China. Behringer is large enough to have its own factory but Euro makers having modules made there generally will outsource. Which is to say the cottage industry isn't as cottagey as it may seem.
There's a 7 year old thread on the subject, for what it's worth. Generally speaking, I think many modules (as well as other electronic instrument companies) assemble with local contract manufacturers. Parts and PCBs, of course, are often Chinese made. However China still lags in some key areas like IC fabrication.

While I think some of the concern over manufacturing ethics in China is a bit overblown (not all Chinese factories are sweatshops, sweatshops occur in other locations, and bad industrial crap happens everywhere), it is true that regulation in China is way "looser", and some of the worker bee treatment over there can be pretty shitty. I'd take it more on a company by company case, personally.

For the big B-word company, there was one notable worker safety issue that came up at the end of 2017, triggering an employee strike. Accidents happen, but IMHO, Uli's official response was... well, pretty much is the sort of shit as to why I won't consider Behringer. :mad: But that's just me, I suppose. (I will be fair to Behringer: you can apply the shitty labor condition deal to Apple, Amazon, and a whole lot of other companies, too. We live in an era where a modern Upton Sinclair is sorely needed. But at least some of these other companies occasionally pretend to care.)

User avatar
UltraViolet
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 555
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:10 pm
Location: Edinburg, Ohio
Contact:

Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by UltraViolet » Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:27 pm

Although most of what Big B is selling is clones of older gear, the Neutron is a legitimately new product. Yes, it copies little bits and such here and there, but pretty much all others do that as well. If anyone else had created it it would likely be praised and not bashed along with everything else from Big B.

Funch

Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by Funch » Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:46 am

Thank you Sandy B. and I second the motion for the civility part not only for this thread but the entire forum.

As many may know, I used to support Behringer and used all the arguments that we constantly see here at Muff's. Uri's advertising branch gave us those arguments to use so we can push back against those who would speak out against Behringer.

But I started noticing a lot of push back against that company. I first labeled them as hating Behringer, sound familiar.

But when intelligent respected members here said they weren't haters and gave their POV, I started to take note and reexamine many previously held points of view.

I started thinking here I am implying someone is a hater when they're not actually a hater.

That was just an imaginary construct that I owned and used to rationalize and justify a position I held.

It's not good to hold onto imaginary constructs because they're not reality.

My go to moral psychologist for understanding different POVs is Jonathan Haidt.

Here are a few quotes.

"If you think that moral reasoning is something we do to figure out the truth, you’ll be constantly frustrated by how foolish, biased, and illogical people become when they disagree with you."

"The human mind is a story processor, not a logic processor."

"[W]hen a group of people make something sacred, the members of the cult lose the ability to think clearly about it. Morality binds and blinds."


www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/55727.Jonathan_Haidt

Arneb
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 529
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:50 pm

Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by Arneb » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:54 am

Can't really be bothered, or to be entirely honest with myself I don't want to be bothered because I want to keep my sanity. It feels like "made in the EU/US*/whatever" is only technically true 99% of the time, and the paradox of choice is crippling enough without having to research every single production chain to find that 1% needle in the haystack.

*) Edit: Though the US has a prison industrial complex too, so even that doesn't help.

peripatitis

Re: The ethics, morals and legitimacy of musical equipment and its manufacturers.

Post by peripatitis » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:49 am

So we are out of the factory protesting/arguing about the immoral practices of said business and
someone says "wait a minute people, lets go out to the woods to discuss this in the most possible general way (not mentioning Behringer) and let the people in there do their job and sell more".
This is a weird courtesy not offered to manufacturers, f#*( up even though, they were here from the beggining, let along a "Gordon Gekko" company.

User avatar
Peake
I'm in ur DIY. Filling cases with Buchla
Posts: 6820
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: Loss Angeles

Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Peake » Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:41 pm

Obviously there is nothing Behringer cannot damage when they put their destructive minds to it for short-term profits.
This is not the place I'd imagined it to be.

User avatar
thispoison
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1030
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:26 am

Re: Behringer System 55

Post by thispoison » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:13 pm

Peake wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:41 pm
Obviously there is nothing Behringer cannot damage when they put their destructive minds to it for short-term profits.
Genuine question. What has been damaged, and how?
Where have I seen you before?
Same place you saw me, I expect.
I've got a good face for memories.

https://soundcloud.com/thispoison-1

User avatar
EPTC
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1275
Joined: Thu May 14, 2015 9:01 am
Location: Austin TX
Contact:

Re: Behringer System 55

Post by EPTC » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:14 pm

thispoison wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:13 pm
Genuine question. What has been damaged, and how?
https://www.moogmusic.com/
SPOKEN WORD WITH ELECTRONICS, New Releases on EPTC, Spring/Summer 2020:
"This is the TRUTH!": https://eptc.bandcamp.com/album/this-is-the-truth
"A Portable Paul Krassner": https://eptc.bandcamp.com/album/paul-krassner

This week's show is on how get your work banned on Facebook, even if you don't mean it to be:


User avatar
thispoison
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1030
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:26 am

Re: Behringer System 55

Post by thispoison » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:30 pm

EPTC wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:14 pm
thispoison wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:13 pm
Genuine question. What has been damaged, and how?
https://www.moogmusic.com/
You really think this damages Moog? I really don't think so.

$35000 Moog or Behringer $???? - not a choice anyone will ever make, ever.
Last edited by thispoison on Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Where have I seen you before?
Same place you saw me, I expect.
I've got a good face for memories.

https://soundcloud.com/thispoison-1

User avatar
Peake
I'm in ur DIY. Filling cases with Buchla
Posts: 6820
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: Loss Angeles

Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Peake » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:37 pm

thispoison wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:30 pm
EPTC wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:14 pm
thispoison wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:13 pm
Genuine question. What has been damaged, and how?
https://www.moogmusic.com/
You really think this damages Moog? I really don't think so.
When Behringer release the cheapest possible "clones" of gear as they've done with the Minimoog D, it harms the general perception of what gear should cost and turns people to the lowest common denominator. And if it sounds different from the original gear it again hurts the perception of its value. I've been part of a company which developed and sold music gear and there is far more to it than most would expect. This is even more true for a boutique enterprise such as Moog Music. If you want individuals and companies to continue to innovate and survive via a return on their investment in the synthesizer field, support them even verbally if you can't afford their gear. Like some of us are doing here.

If Behringer were creating their own designs from scratch it would be welcome. Not this. What if Moog Music wanted to delve into Eurack? Now it'd be a problem. Behringer has limited Moog's possible expansion, and their right to produce their own circuits in that format.
Last edited by Peake on Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This is not the place I'd imagined it to be.

User avatar
KittenVillage
Common Wiggler
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:30 am
Location: Glenshaw, PA
Contact:

Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KittenVillage » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:46 pm

It's like they are opening two super sized Walmarts on either end of town. Cheap toilet paper for all but then in a couple years you'll wonder where all the shops in your quaint little downtown went. They wouldn't be making these except they see nice profit margin, and they have deep enough pockets to play the long game.

Not sure I'm into any of these modules personally, but then I've been growing my modular organically month to month with different goals in mind than someone who would be interested in a cheap ($1500) vintage clone synth.


Eurorack is an exercise in delayed desire.

User avatar
thispoison
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1030
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:26 am

Re: Behringer System 55

Post by thispoison » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:47 pm

Peake wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:37 pm
thispoison wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:30 pm
EPTC wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:14 pm
thispoison wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:13 pm
Genuine question. What has been damaged, and how?
https://www.moogmusic.com/
You really think this damages Moog? I really don't think so.
When Behringer release the cheapest possible "clones" of gear as they've done with the Minimoog D, it harms the general perception of what gear should cost and turns people to the lowest common denominator. And if it sounds different from the original gear it again hurts the perception of its value. I've been part of a company which developed and sold music gear and there is far more to it than most would expect. This is even more true for a boutique enterprise such as Moog Music. If you want individuals and companies to continue to innovate and survive via a return on their investment in the synthesizer field, support them even verbally if you can't afford their gear. Like some of us are doing here.

If Behringer were creating their own designs from scratch it would be welcome. Not this.
Thank you.

I see your point and acknowledge it. I support Moog through buying their products - Minimoog, Polymoog, Theremin, Voyager Signature and Minimoog reissue thus far. I don't dispute the value of Behringer innovating, but nothing they do damages my love of Moog, and hopefully (and I agree it's just my opinion), Moog.
Where have I seen you before?
Same place you saw me, I expect.
I've got a good face for memories.

https://soundcloud.com/thispoison-1

User avatar
starthief
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 4195
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:39 am
Location: St Louis, MO
Contact:

Re: Behringer System 55

Post by starthief » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:03 pm

Some people buy Rolex watches. Others buy Casio watches. They both tell time.

The Rolex buyer knows why they're paying so much, and that this isn't just "what watches should cost".
The Casio buyer knows why they're paying so little, and they're okay with this.

Rolex probably never lost a sale to Casio.

(Kind of an old metaphor since most people probably just use their cellphones to tell time now, but still valid)

User avatar
Synthacon
Common Wiggler
Posts: 198
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:43 am
Location: UK

Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Synthacon » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:07 pm

Any hate for people like Synthwerk, MOS-Lab, COTK, Aion, AJH etc?

Just saying :doh:
You always want just one more synth

Post Reply

Return to “General Gear”