PD synthesis in modern synths?

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acidbob
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PD synthesis in modern synths?

Post by acidbob » Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:33 pm

Any modern synths with PD?
Just wondering since those Casio's are getting pretty old and also, would it be hard to implement into the Digitone?

I know that it has complex envelopes.

But man, it would be so cool to have an updated version of a CZ-1 in a small form factor.

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commodorejohn
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Post by commodorejohn » Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:51 pm

Interesting question. It's certainly easy enough to implement, if one is so inclined - it basically amounts to a piecewise translation function applied to the phase value before translating the phase value into a sine output. Hell, you could probably even rig up something like it on a modular, if you got creative with quantizers and slew. No idea if anyone else has done it, though.
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Post by Muzone » Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:00 pm

Bastl kastle does phase distortion, but needs to be part of a bigger system if you want to play it conventionally

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Post by nostalghia » Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:03 pm

There's UVI Cameo in software: https://www.uvi.net/en/vintage-synth/cameo.html
Some of the synths/patches use raw waveforms from the Casio CZ series as a basis.

The WMD PDO Eurorack oscillator module uses "phase modulation" or displacement. Not sure how similar it is to the Casio PD synthesis.
A few other modules that might be of interest turn up in search results (for phase distortion) of Modular Grid:
Phase Distortion modules (Euro)
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Post by Sir Ruff » Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:25 pm

Waldorf Quantum has it
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Post by anselmi » Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:11 am

OP-1 (in theory) has a PD mode, but since TI documentation about the synthesis engine is obscure I can´t confirm this

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Post by chaocrator » Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:03 am

technically, phase distortion is a particular case of phase modulation (which is a particular case of frequency modulation).

in phase distortion, modulator and carrier are synchronized by cycle — that's its key characteristic.

so, i strongly suspect that some FM-capable engines (e.g. Blofeld) can actually do it (and some Blofeld patches sound VERY similar to CZ). typically we need sine waves for carrier, and various angular waves for modulator — and that's it.

did not have enough time to explore this in details though.
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Post by Blingley » Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:41 am

2 oscillators and a VCA, with an additional envelope (or other modulator) if you actually want the sound to well, move.

1. Oscillator(a) doing a sine wave.
2. Oscillator(b) doing a downwards ramp (Saw) at equal or slightly lower frequency than Osc(a)
3. Osc(a) output into a VCA input
4. Osc(b) into the hard sync input of Osc(a) and the control input of VCA, so that the saw closes the VCA fully at its lowest point.
5. Envelope into the FM input of Osc(a)

How well this works depends on whether or not Osc(a) has its reset point at zero or not.

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Post by huffnPuff » Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:45 am

Isn't the WMD PDO just that?

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Post by acidbob » Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:45 am

Thanks for all the input guys, but not really looking for a euro module or software :)

Would be great if Casio went back into the game like Yamaha, or if Elektron could add this to the Digitone.

I really really like the sounds that those older Casio keyboards can produce.


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Post by Darkside » Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:33 am

Completely agree.
Just like Yamaha did with the ReFace DX, Casio could also come out with some small pd keyboard calling it CZ-"something" of course, but probably it wouldn't happen, as they are not interested in making real synths any more.

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Post by anselmi » Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:59 pm

Arturia have a very good recreation of the original with some extras

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Post by autopoiesis » Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:34 am

there is also the Hertz Donut MkIII which is really capable in the PD department

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Post by commodorejohn » Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:56 am

The real value in a revival of the CZ series would be getting PD with a less godawful editing interface than the originals.
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Post by what gives? » Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:11 pm

telharmonic does phase modulation too

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Post by xthrasherx » Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:20 pm

IME Hertz Donut MkIII was specifically designed with those PD synths in mind. Obviously it’s only a piece of the puzzle since it is eurorack, but it is one hell of a voice.
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Post by skunk_hour » Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:47 pm

I believe one of Zebra's osc algorithms is intended to emulate it, and there's an Max for Live device that emulates the CZ series.
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Post by pricklyrobot » Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:23 pm

commodorejohn wrote:The real value in a revival of the CZ series would be getting PD with a less godawful editing interface than the originals.

If you’ve got an iPad (and some kind of DIN MIDI interface), the CZ Touch app is a pretty nice modern editor.

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Post by Annwn » Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:28 am

I would personally love to see Casio re-visit their CZ line. Boutique format perhaps with decent polyphony, chorus and preset storage that doesn't require C batteries or being plugged into the wall. Oh and a switchable "Dirty DAC" and flat-batteries randomised preset emulation mode. :love:

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Post by acidbob » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:58 am

I wrote Casio to let them know :) Dont expect anything, but would be very very cool

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Re: PD synthesis in modern synths?

Post by rjungemann » Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:03 pm

Casio CZ series sounds great and much quicker to get good sounds than traditional PM/FM, I think! I feel like it'd be the right time for a remake.

There's Oli Larkin's VirtualCZ plugin which is fantastic, and the creator made a Max4Live phase distortion synth too.

Also, the new Arturia CZ plug-in, and Propellerhead Thor has recreations of the CZ oscillator section.

If you record some oscillator sweeps, it's easy to make wavetables out of the CZ waveshapes. I've done this a couple times but only ad-hoc. Best part, no filter needed!
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Re: PD synthesis in modern synths?

Post by numan7 » Wed Dec 25, 2019 5:46 am

:) pd (which i guess is still "modern") can do some pretty nice PD:

https://forum.pdpatchrepo.info/topic/59 ... illators/2


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