Hardware which won't be updated to work on MacOS Catalina

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OMN
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Hardware which won't be updated to work on MacOS Catalina

Post by OMN » Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:34 am

It seems that TC Electronics won't update their Studio Connect ( or similar hardware ) to Catalina.

Their driver software is 32bit. ( 32bit software won't work on Catalina.

Any news about this ?

What hardware else is in that situation ?

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Post by sduck » Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:14 am

So don't update. That's the easy solution. Or you can just bug the snot out of TCElectronics - if enough people complain loudly enough, they'll update their software.
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Post by ranix » Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:25 am

not updating means you have to buy a new computer if you use that computer for security-sensitive tasks. Like if you use online banking or a password safe, that needs to be on a patched and updated machine and a healthy network with a patched and updated router. If you're using ancient equipment or software for these things you're at significant risk of experiencing bank fraud, password theft, and/or a ransomware attack.

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Post by chvad » Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:07 am

ranix wrote:not updating means you have to buy a new computer if you use that computer for security-sensitive tasks. Like if you use online banking or a password safe, that needs to be on a patched and updated machine and a healthy network with a patched and updated router. If you're using ancient equipment or software for these things you're at significant risk of experiencing bank fraud, password theft, and/or a ransomware attack.
yeah but those machines should be separate from music tools anyway. it's not the best situation considering $$ but that's often how it works the best.

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Post by berfmurret » Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:09 am

lol @ paranoid IT guy.
My 2013 MBP running Mojave is ancient.... :help:

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Post by OMN » Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:42 am

1. don't upgrade

2. buy a new computer ( and find a new audio interface I guess ?? )

3. make enough noise to the manufacturer.

I have a MBP2015 for which the life expentancy is not more then another 2 years. So the new computer will come with newest OS anyways.

I love the TC hardware, it is a pity if they decide not upgrade their software. Well, it is 10 years old already.

There is a list on Sweetwater;

https://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/ar ... lity-list/

The list is very long, but does not say if the supplier already has decided not to upgrade and has abandoned the product.

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Post by Panason » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:46 pm

The technocrats have done a good job of keeping people on a tight leash with all the security theater attached to pretty much every update. But it is the newest stuff that seems to get hacked more often.

So long as you can run an up to date browser and don't click on shit you don't know, and don't go to dodgy websites without protection, seems safe to me. But they're of course assuming that people will do all the dumb things. We have a situation of constant dumbing down to "protect" and exploit the clueless masses.

Apple could start doing a "Pro" version of their OS for power users and stop with this kindergarden BS. Having to keep turning on their lame security system that prevents you from installing 3rd party stuff, because the shit turns itself back on every week or so, is really grating and straight out of Windows hell.

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Post by Monotremata » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:09 am

Panason wrote:Apple could start doing a "Pro" version of their OS for power users and stop with this kindergarden BS. Having to keep turning on their lame security system that prevents you from installing 3rd party stuff, because the shit turns itself back on every week or so, is really grating and straight out of Windows hell.
So, SIP DOES turn itself back on then?? I am almost positive when I first installed Mojave I turned it right off, and I know Ive done it a couple more times over the last year as well. Just saw a crash report the other night working in the MPC Software and sure enough "System Integrity Protection: Enabled".

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Post by GuyaGuy » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:32 am

TC Electronic has had years to plan on an update for 64 bit and apparently decided not to support that specific fairly old hardware. Probably lots of legacy VSTs that people will lose with this new OS too. It’s a pain but on the other hand it’s a pain in the ass to support legacy machines and software—in the same way that it’s a pain in the ass for web developers to support legacy browsers. Having said that I’m still holding off on installing the new OS, which I usually do anyway to make sure all bugs are worked out.

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Post by suboptimal » Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:54 am

I'm sympathetic with people who are finding their hardware is being plowed into obsolescence. On the other hand, this pain has been experienced by many for a long time. Hardware with computer dependence has always been on a short life clock.

Every business I've ever worked for, including public companies with major security concerns, has run old computers with old (sometimes shockingly old) software. If network security is the concern, there may be solutions that don't require upgrading the computer's OS.

I don't plan on upgrading my Mac any time soon. I anticipate lots of unpleasant surprises when I do.

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Post by aroom » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:25 pm

High Sierra still gets security update for the OS and Safari. So you don't need to update for security reason - yet.

Mojave and Catalina can be patched to run on unsupported devices: http://dosdude1.com/software.html

I'm currently running Catalina on a 2011 MBP with a defect GPU. and it's good enough for me to keep my defect laptop for a few more months/years.

ps: and I can run any 64 bit softwares from third parties on Catalina. no problem so far. I still use High Sierra for professional purpose anyway.

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Post by OMN » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:07 pm

Yes,

I hope that some bridging software can hold these unsupported hardware online for a couple more years.

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Post by GuyaGuy » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:41 pm

You can always partition your machine so that it can boot up in Mojave or Catalina. Or use something like Parallels.

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Post by aroom » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:52 pm

Exactly!

If your SSD is in APFS, you just create another volume, create an USB installer and install the OS on it. Better than partitioning: you can share all the available GB on any volume.

Install Catalina and check what's broken or not...

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Post by ersatzplanet » Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:54 am

I never install a major upgrade without cloning my current master drive and upgrading it there. Drives are really cheap nowadays. I got an external 2TB thunderbolt LaCie drive a couple of days ago for $89 on Amazon.

Mac OS has live partitioning now too so you can create partitions on drives without erasing them. If your system has a large drive, partition it and put the new OS and the security sensitive stuff on it. I commonly boot into older OS's to run legacy software I didn't want to spend money to upgrade. Now I will do it with Catalina - one drive with all the stuff that works with it, another drive (potentially a partition) with all the stuff that doesn't that I feel I still need, with Mojave on it. It is a little hassle to reboot but it is basically free if you already have the drive space.
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Post by Neo » Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:00 pm

This problem is easily avoided... instead of spending $2k on a mac book pro, just work out of the box and spend $20k on modular :deadbanana:

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Post by OMN » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:54 pm

The main subject here is actually about hardware which is not upgraded to the new OS.

So even if you configure yourself multiple booting options, your hardware, let's say an audio interface as an essential part of your studio, will only work with one booting option.

So I wonder how difficult it is to develop a bridging software to run 32bit apps on Catalina. That's what we need, if it is possible.

I like eurorack modular very much sound wise, and system logic, and would happily spend 20K, ( still not there ) however when it comes to event organization, data generation, multi track management, handling of data and visualization and in my case I use my audio interface to post process my eurorack signals, nothing comes close to the efficiency of a computer.

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Post by sutekina bipu-on » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:42 pm

OMN wrote:The main subject here is actually about hardware which is not upgraded to the new OS.

So even if you configure yourself multiple booting options, your hardware, let's say an audio interface as an essential part of your studio, will only work with one booting option.

So I wonder how difficult it is to develop a bridging software to run 32bit apps on Catalina. That's what we need, if it is possible.

I like eurorack modular very much sound wise, and system logic, and would happily spend 20K, ( still not there ) however when it comes to event organization, data generation, multi track management, handling of data and visualization and in my case I use my audio interface to post process my eurorack signals, nothing comes close to the efficiency of a computer.
Bringing 32 bit support back is a noble idea, but man, you can get a 10 year old mini mac for so cheap used. Just leave Snow Leopard on one and enjoy the stability. I just looked on ebay and saw 2008 & 2009 models for under $60. And, honestly i don't have a SSD in my own 2009 mini mac. I have a 500gb hard drive and lots of ram because ddr2 is worthless, and it's very fast and responsive! Most peoples memories of using those machines and them crawling were with minimal RAM.

I use it like a glorified recorder to interface with older hardware and then move everything to my good PC and work with it on the DAW there. I find this to be the best of both worlds. It's a small price to pay for seamless results doing anything I want with abandoned hardware.

You would honestly have an easier time writing 64 bit drivers than trying to create a 32 bit environment for them in a pure 64 bit OS. I've ported 16 bit software to modern OS'es. It's not fun but the other way around is worse.

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Post by beedogs » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:39 pm

Or just stop using OS X and get a PC running Windows 10. That's my next move.

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Post by dubonaire » Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:31 am

This is a bit ridiculous. 64-bit addressing is not new, it's decades old and Mac OS has been 64-bit since 2011. There has to be some point in time when 32-bit is no longer supported. There have been years of warning about this, so if 32-bit apps no longer run it's not the fault of Apple.

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Post by Blairio » Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:08 am

ranix wrote:not updating means you have to buy a new computer if you use that computer for security-sensitive tasks. Like if you use online banking or a password safe, that needs to be on a patched and updated machine and a healthy network with a patched and updated router. If you're using ancient equipment or software for these things you're at significant risk of experiencing bank fraud, password theft, and/or a ransomware attack.
There are two separate things here - the hardware and the software.

A machine running an older O/S only represents a heightened security risk once that O/S goes out of Support.

So if you are on MacOs Mojave (like me), then the critical date is not when Catalina is released, but when Mohave is no longer supported by Apple with security patches that address new (and newly discovered) vulnerabilities.

Mojave was released in early June 2018, so should be supported with security patches for some years to come.

Good IT security is not about automatically moving onto the latest version of an O/S or app. Often the latest versions are the ones harbouring the big bugs, due to pressure to bring new software to market to meet an advertising driven (rather than software maturity) milestone.

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Post by dubonaire » Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:19 am

Blairio wrote:
ranix wrote:not updating means you have to buy a new computer if you use that computer for security-sensitive tasks. Like if you use online banking or a password safe, that needs to be on a patched and updated machine and a healthy network with a patched and updated router. If you're using ancient equipment or software for these things you're at significant risk of experiencing bank fraud, password theft, and/or a ransomware attack.
There are two separate things here - the hardware and the software.

A machine running an older O/S only represents a heightened security risk once that O/S goes out of Support.

So if you are on MacOs Mojave (like me), then the critical date is not when Catalina is released, but when Mohave is no longer supported by Apple with security patches that address new (and newly discovered) vulnerabilities.

Mojave was released in early June 2018, so should be supported with security patches for some years to come.

Good IT security is not about automatically moving onto the latest version of an O/S or app. Often the latest versions are the ones harbouring the big bugs, due to pressure to bring new software to market to meet an advertising driven (rather than software maturity) milestone.
I’m no IT security expert, but my understanding is one of the big risks that this new OS addresses, which patches for previous versions can’t address, is malware using backdoor entry through hosted apps which make DAWs in particular a significant risk.

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Post by Blairio » Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:08 am

dubonaire wrote:
Blairio wrote:
ranix wrote:not updating means you have to buy a new computer if you use that computer for security-sensitive tasks. Like if you use online banking or a password safe, that needs to be on a patched and updated machine and a healthy network with a patched and updated router. If you're using ancient equipment or software for these things you're at significant risk of experiencing bank fraud, password theft, and/or a ransomware attack.
There are two separate things here - the hardware and the software.

A machine running an older O/S only represents a heightened security risk once that O/S goes out of Support.

So if you are on MacOs Mojave (like me), then the critical date is not when Catalina is released, but when Mohave is no longer supported by Apple with security patches that address new (and newly discovered) vulnerabilities.

Mojave was released in early June 2018, so should be supported with security patches for some years to come.

Good IT security is not about automatically moving onto the latest version of an O/S or app. Often the latest versions are the ones harbouring the big bugs, due to pressure to bring new software to market to meet an advertising driven (rather than software maturity) milestone.
I’m no IT security expert, but my understanding is one of the big risks that this new OS addresses, which patches for previous versions can’t address, is malware using backdoor entry through hosted apps which make DAWs in particular a significant risk.
I agree, backdoors are a major security issue, but they are not restricted to any given O/S or any given app. Backdoors should be removed by developers once the code is stable, and vulnerability testing together with static code analysis should confirm that.

A major problem is that sites which host apps do not necessarily vet and police them. In my workplace we can only download apps from the company's 'software mall', because anything that makes it onto the mall has been determined to be safe. I wish app stores took the same approach.

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Post by tehyar » Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:55 am

For the OP: I got the impression you were curious about what other hardware might be affected, possibly even starting a collaborative list. Naturally, that train is gonna instantly derail. :razz:

Sweetwater is doing a pretty solid job if you want some actual information.

https://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/ar ... lity-list/

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Post by ranix » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:44 pm

Blairio wrote: Backdoors should be removed by developers once the code is stable, and vulnerability testing together with static code analysis should confirm that.
:hmm: no idea what you're talking about, backdoors are not usually something installed during software development :huh:
A major problem is that sites which host apps do not necessarily vet and police them. In my workplace we can only download apps from the company's 'software mall', because anything that makes it onto the mall has been determined to be safe. I wish app stores took the same approach.
Theoretically they do (actually they don't, see stories like this one) but even then applications like DAWs can be vulnerable to code running in plugin-like child software like VSTs

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