MIDI sync and Ableton...Questions...Problems...Stuff...

Any music gear discussions that don't fit into one of the other forums.

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nomadjames
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Post by nomadjames » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:38 am

I grabbed a Kenton powered thru and a used Usamo last night. Hopefully Expert Sleepers will have no problem allowing me access to the plugin, I will email them now.
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Post by DiscoDevil » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:45 am

nomadjames wrote:DiscoDevil: any particular merge you would recommend? I was pretty blown away that the Quadra I bought just wont work with my interface. I had no warning and wasn't expecting that. It took a long ass time to troubleshoot.
I use Kentons for merge and thru functions.

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Post by nomadjames » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:47 am

Thanks, That Kenton USB/MIDI host has been pretty rock solid.
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Post by Panason » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:21 am

nomadjames wrote:I grabbed a Kenton powered thru and a used Usamo last night. Hopefully Expert Sleepers will have no problem allowing me access to the plugin, I will email them now.
Sweet, please let us know how it goes!

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Post by Panason » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:42 am

DiscoDevil wrote: Inner Clock is working on a new product.
Good to hear! I hope it will be a simple sync box at €100 but somehow I feel that it will be another multi-output device for the modular crowd costing big bucks ...

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Post by DiscoDevil » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:43 am

Panason wrote:
DiscoDevil wrote: Inner Clock is working on a new product.
Good to hear! I hope it will be a simple sync box at €100 but somehow I feel that it will be another multi-output device for the modular crowd costing big bucks ...
It will definitely be a multi output, multi function device. It looks quite big and powerful. Tons of CV.

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Post by Panason » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:55 pm

I don't understand why they would discontinue the basic SyncLock unit. The SyncGen Pro 2 with 5 MIDI and 5 Din sync outs was a bit overkill for smaller studio projects. There is obviously some demand. I've come across this type of discussion on various forums.

I think one disadvantage of the USAMO is that it doesn't use 2 separate inputs, one for start/stop and another for clock.

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Post by DiscoDevil » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:14 pm

Panason wrote:I don't understand why they would discontinue the basic SyncLock unit. The SyncGen Pro 2 with 5 MIDI and 5 Din sync outs was a bit overkill for smaller studio projects. There is obviously some demand. I've come across this type of discussion on various forums.
They discontinued it due to lack of demand. The market became flooded with devices that did basically the same thing.

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Post by Panason » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:20 pm

??? There' s the expensive ERM Multiclock, and the USAMO, and that's about it?

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Post by DiscoDevil » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:33 pm

Panason wrote:??? There' s the expensive ERM Multiclock, and the USAMO, and that's about it?
It's a niche market. He's a 1-2 person shop. Wasn't selling enough to make it worthwhile. His words, not mine.

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Post by Panason » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:23 pm

I have to say I don't notice any timing issues when syncing my Rytm to Ableton.. The Rytm shows a regular variation of +-0.1 BPM (alternating between -0.1 and + 0.1) ... I adjusted the clock timing offset by ear for all connected MIDI units and since then everything sounds OK... but I haven't made any comparisons with more solid clocks.

I guess it's the same for most people, it sounds good enough so they don't bother with these devices.

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Post by DiscoDevil » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:07 pm

Panason wrote:I have to say I don't notice any timing issues when syncing my Rytm to Ableton.. The Rytm shows a regular variation of +-0.1 BPM (alternating between -0.1 and + 0.1) ... I adjusted the clock timing offset by ear for all connected MIDI units and since then everything sounds OK... but I haven't made any comparisons with more solid clocks.

I guess it's the same for most people, it sounds good enough so they don't bother with these devices.
You notice it when you try to record an external device on to an audio track and have the beats land right on the grid so you can add more audio tracks and have them be in sync. Put a kick drum loop on an Ableton track and play a kick loop on the RYTM at the same time. See how close they are in sync.

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Post by Moskowitz » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:43 pm

Panason wrote:Another thing I don't like about the USAMO is that the plugin is tied to a license key for some strange reason - the software is useless without the hardware so I don't get why it is not free to use. You're only allowed to activate it on 3 computers, then you have to email the developer if you want more... So when / if Expert Sleepers stops trading (as small companies in this business often do) you're down to whether the developer continues to reply to emails.... He's on this forum though...

Inner Clock Systems (who used to make the SyncGen) understood that there is no need to lock down the plugin so at some point they basically removed the copy protection from it. .
They unfortunately stopped trading last year and the SynGen is no longer available. :bang:
Having dealt with both Os and David this story is par for the course. If you emailed David (Innerclock) today about an issue he'd be back to you in a flash. I do not doubt that Os is a bright and busy man but my experience would suggest that he could improve his method of dealing with customers. Requiring a license key for the software that requires hardware is par for the course. I suppose a real d-bag could open the box and copy it but same goes for sync gen. Its unlikely his business hinges on preventing this.

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Post by nomadjames » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:13 pm

Panason wrote:I have to say I don't notice any timing issues when syncing my Rytm to Ableton.. The Rytm shows a regular variation of +-0.1 BPM (alternating between -0.1 and + 0.1) ... I adjusted the clock timing offset by ear for all connected MIDI units and since then everything sounds OK... but I haven't made any comparisons with more solid clocks.

I guess it's the same for most people, it sounds good enough so they don't bother with these devices.

My clock was off by an insane amount. Basically unusable. I would be fine with yours for how I work.
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Post by nomadjames » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:14 pm

Edited: double post
Last edited by nomadjames on Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Sleipnir » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:30 pm

Moskowitz wrote:Having dealt with both Os and David this story is par for the course.
If you don’t want to deal with plugins, get an ES-3 and pipe some low frequency square waves through it. :party:
Edit: Hmm, ok I guess the newer MPCs don’t have an analog sync in.

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Post by Panason » Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:55 am

DiscoDevil wrote:Put a kick drum loop on an Ableton track and play a kick loop on the RYTM at the same time. See how close they are in sync.
That's how I adjusted the clock offset, only I used a pitched up snare sound on the Rytm and Live's metronome. By setting the clock output to the Rytm to -20ms the two sounded perfectly in sync... but mostly I work on live sets. I haven't done any multitrack recording with this setup yet ... not looking forward to that :help:

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Post by nomadjames » Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:42 pm

Want to thank all of you for your help. Can’t wait for these pieces to get here. Gonna try and score a MOTU midi thing too, as soon as I recoup from the spending, lol.
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Post by Moskowitz » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:31 pm

Sleipnir wrote:
Moskowitz wrote:Having dealt with both Os and David this story is par for the course.
If you don’t want to deal with plugins, get an ES-3 and pipe some low frequency square waves through it. :party:
Edit: Hmm, ok I guess the newer MPCs don’t have an analog sync in.
That's the whole point - the plug-in makes it easy and dealing with David is easy - he is truly the coolest cat, passionate about what he does and extremely generous and helpful.

Dealing with a tempo synced square wave as audio and multing it to the devices that accept it sounds like a far bigger pain in the ass.

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Post by The Grump » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:20 am

Seems like you're making things more complicated than necessary. I'm not sure what you have Ableton doing, But I have an MPC1k whose MIDI I am using to drive an Evolver and a Mopho, and whatever else I happen to be sampling into the the MPC or into Ableton. I'm using a K-Mix as my interface and MIDI I/O, and it's ok. I also sometimes use a Midiman Midisport 2x2, especially when running editors of pieces like my TG-77, Microwave or Q Rack, but those really only get sampled and don't leave the studio.

Here's why I use the MPC: because Ableton's timing is all over the fucking place. As soon as you switch a device on or off, your offsets to your outboard gear change. And that is just life with Ableton as your clock. So... I'm moving away from using it as a clock at all. I'm using it in the studio, and kind of phasing it out for live performance purposes if I am integrating hardware into the set.

The thing to figure out is how to integrate Link, because Live syncs with other pieces using Link like a champ. I have recently been clocking VCV to the MPC and it seems to work pretty well. However, I'm really doing the pee-pee dance, waiting for version 5.6 to drop so that MIDI and CV can be sent out of it to hardware interfaces, at which point, I will try to use an almost empty rack with just Link module, and something the send clock to the MPC, thus hopefully ending the nightmare.

As far as recording audio from my hardware into Ableton goes, I don't even bother trying to sync stuff. it just goes in as unsync'd audio, and I align it in Live afterward. Sadly, that is still less of pain in the ass than trying to get Ableton to sync correctly.

On a brighter note, Logic syncs PERFECTLY with the MPC from either the KMI Expander or the Midiman.

One thing I would not do anymore is try to sync the TR-8 via USB. Slave it to the MPC, as you would for a live situation. You have two outs on the MPC. If you are running more than two pieces in series, then get an active splitter and run them all side by side from the MPC so that the clock hits them all in parallel.

I have an Anatek Pocket Thru that I sometimes use, but something like aJL Cooper MSB would be a more elegant solution for not a whole lot of skrilla. Don't underestimate old technology. A lot of new stuff is still a bit too clever for its own good. Good luck!

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Post by Panason » Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:38 am

What is VCV?

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Post by nomadjames » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:23 am

I figured out a work around while I wait for that Usamo! The sync out of the Keystep was pretty solid. Plugged it in to computer, sent it out via MIDI out to MPC, and split the midi out to the the other synths. Plugged the Tr-8 and op-1 into the computer, they got pretty good sync that way.
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Post by Panason » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:01 am

How are you getting on with the USAMO?

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Post by nomadjames » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:19 am

Well, I needed a different splitter for later in the set up, and the guy I ordered it off of on Ebay never sent it.

I have been having trouble getting the Usamo, to work. Trouble shooting it currently. Having a problem getting it pass it's self test.
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Post by a.d.a.m.baby » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:47 pm

Panason wrote:I don't understand why they would discontinue the basic SyncLock unit. The SyncGen Pro 2 with 5 MIDI and 5 Din sync outs was a bit overkill for smaller studio projects. There is obviously some demand. I've come across this type of discussion on various forums.
Have you tried emailing David from Innerclock? He's probably got a few lying around the workshop... I recall last year he said on his blog he had various items of stock left.

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