New Poly from Black Corporation: (edit) KIJIMI !

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psv
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Post by psv » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:32 am

roman_f wrote: please show me a simple and temperature stable sawtooth oscillator circuit which i can use for a polyphonic synth
Why? The best sounding analog synths are not very temperature stable.

Its like the human voice, an Orchester, etc. small tuning fluctuations make it sound good in the first place.
Corrected to mathematically perfect pitch, it sounds stale.

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Post by Panason » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:49 am

I'd rather have stable tuning than 1% more fat that nobody cares about and nobody will notice in a mix... or even 10% more fat that will have to be EQ'd out to sit well in a mix.

This new analog poly looks like the business! is there a guesstimate for the price of the kit?

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Post by psv » Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:32 am

Panason wrote:I'd rather have stable tuning than 1% more fat that nobody cares about and nobody will notice in a mix... ...
You seem pretty confident about nobody's preferences. ;-)

Subtle tuning fluctuations are an important part of music.
They can be heard in orchestral, choir and vocal performances and most importantly define the sound of vintage analog synths.

Since this project is inspired by vintage analog I am probably not the only one who wants it to sound reminiscent of the famous Kobols of the past.

If you want stable tuning, maybe you need a plugin.

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Post by Panason » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:08 pm

If you want subtle tuning fluctuations maybe you could use a S&H LFO on the synth or via MIDI to modulate the pitch by a small amount ? :hmm:

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Post by oldgearguy » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:33 pm

Panason wrote:If you want subtle tuning fluctuations maybe you could use a S&H LFO on the synth or via MIDI to modulate the pitch by a small amount ? :hmm:
Nope. Witness all of DSI's attempts at adding various versions of this solution (slop, variance, drift, humanize).

None of that sounds the same as the vintage analog polys. Once you've owned and played them (former owner of a PolyKobol II here, among other vintgae polys) you know what we're talking about. Even an OB-Xa, a fairly modern analog polysynth still has that bigness to it when playing chords that you don't hear in the modern gear.

It's not just the oscillators, it's also the VCF cutoff, tracking, and resonance, the envelopes, all of it is just ever so slightly different and great sounding together.

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Post by GovernorSilver » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:12 pm

So, where we at in voting whether or not tobb or roman can use a Curtis oscillator in the new Black Corp. thingy? Is it 10-1 for vs. against? 23-3? ;)

I thought the reason was the original Kobol had one too?

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Post by oldgearguy » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:28 pm

GovernorSilver wrote:So, where we at in voting whether or not tobb can use a Curtis oscillator or whatever?

I thought the reason was the original Kobol had one too?
I thought Roman was going to do what he wanted to do.

Worst case is he ends up with a Voyetra 8 clone (Curtis Osc, SSM filter).

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Post by GovernorSilver » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:04 pm

oldgearguy wrote:
GovernorSilver wrote:So, where we at in voting whether or not tobb can use a Curtis oscillator or whatever?

I thought the reason was the original Kobol had one too?
I thought Roman was going to do what he wanted to do.

Worst case is he ends up with a Voyetra 8 clone (Curtis Osc, SSM filter).
Was joking, as I was amused by the drama. Anyway, the comment to Roman that started the latest drama was "Fuck, no Curtis oscillators!"

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Post by Panason » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:33 pm

:roll:

There is no drama and nothing to see here!
oldgearguy wrote: Even an OB-Xa, a fairly modern analog polysynth still has that bigness to it when playing chords that you don't hear in the modern gear.
OK so the OB-Xa is fatter than the new OB 6?

And even if it sounds subtly fatter in a straight a/b comparison with nothing else in the mix, does it matter in the context of a mix ? I tend to think not but I guess it depends on what music you're making.

Personally if i'm paying big bucks for a synth I don't want to have to worry about tuning so I'll go with the stability over "slightly fatter/ more organic" every time.

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Post by GovernorSilver » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:20 pm

Panason wrote::roll:

There is no drama and nothing to see here!
As I said I was just amused by the "Oh FUCK, CURTIS... aackkkk!" thing, which sounds melodramatic, and therefore hilarious.
Last edited by GovernorSilver on Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by GovernorSilver » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:23 pm

oops

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Post by tobb » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:38 pm

psv wrote: small tuning fluctuations make it sound good in the first place.
Corrected to mathematically perfect pitch, it sounds stale.
The CEM3340 is like that,... but check how 'well ' the compensation is done in your prophet (600? lol) or Memorymoog and how well it performs.. :doh:

Anyhow,the original Kobol osc with the 726 oven is pretty stable but the Moslab adaptation with the tempco has way too much drift (tested,owned,compared),sounds fat with two vco's in a mono synth but i can't imagine how crap it would be in a 8 voice poly,worse then the Memorymoog for sure,so a 3340 is a perfect candidate.

Its not an individual waveform per osc synth,its an original circuit of the Kobol waveshaper that is reproduced and tweaked to match using the driving waveform,the 3340 is only the driver,the sound you will hear is the shaper ,its totally useless to reproduce the original Kobol vco circuit updated to achieve the needed stability to use in a poly application while there is a dirt cheap all onchip solution already available.

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Post by zeit » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:22 pm

I want a Deckards Dream bad but think I want this "Polykobol" even more. Time to start saving up! :party:

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Post by estin » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:14 pm

dang Muffs has gone gearslutz

Dope new synth announced..........everyone argues :doh:

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Post by Panason » Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:39 am

"everyone".... why so much exaggeration?

There is no argument...

What tobb said. For a polysynth, fuck tuning drift. Now I'm waiting to hear the price of the kit so I can probably realize I can't afford it :doh:

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Post by sneak-thief » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:53 am

Peake - have you tried a wide variety of synths that use the 3340? Not sure you can make that kind of blanket statement unless you have.

IIRC, you have positive things to say about the Jupiter 8, so let's compare it to other 3340 machines:

Take the OB-Xa, MC-202, SH-101, Jupiter 6, MKS-80, Prophet 5 Rev. 3, Prophet 600, Pro-One (since I've used these quite a bit)...

I can see how some would say the JP6 and MKS-80 are on the tame and clinical side, but you would be hard-pressed to hear complaints about the sound of a Pro-One. Compared to a JP8, the OB-Xa & SH-101 are also quite lively (the latter maybe because of the instability of the voltage being sent to the DAC). A P5 Rev 3. and even a P600 with Gligli's OS can sometimes muscle in on JP8 territory when modulated accordingly.

The bottom line for me is that the JP8's VCOs are no more interesting, shimmery, wobbly, snappy, perky or what-have-you than a well-designed 3340 synth. I've never spent time with a Deckard's Dream, but there are some demos of it from Pando and Firechild that put it right up there in classic polysynth territory. To my ears it sounds at least as good as a CS-70m.


Footnote: based on my own experiences the 3340 sounds much livelier than the 3374 found in the Matrix/Xpander, Chroma Polaris and Akai V600.
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Post by flabby » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:04 am

Are there any other demos of this kinda synth other than couple that are on Yoitube? Would like to know what this really sounds like.

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Post by Sir Ruff » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:06 am

Panason wrote:What tobb said. For a polysynth, fuck tuning drift.
So why would you ever want an analog polysynth in the first place?

Tuning and drift are not the same thing. Very few vintage synths have "tuning" problems when well-maintained, so it's not "tuning" but the subtle drift between oscillators within a voice that give vintage analog synths their "sound", which is pleasant phasing/chorusing even when in perfect unison.

The new DSI P-6/OB-6 synths, as good as they sound, have gone to extremes to reduce this, almost to the point of making VCOs sound like DCOs. The slop feature is a hacked on and artificial way of recreating what vintage VCOs did naturally, WHILE still staying in tune.

So getting back to this Black Corp synth, hopefully the oscillators will be allowed to "breath". This is largely what is going to make or break a synth of this caliber.

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Post by rutabaga40 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:35 pm

Panason wrote: OK so the OB-Xa is fatter than the new OB 6?
I had Prophet 6 and OB6 AND a Prophet 5 rev3 and OBXa. When it came time to weed out all the analog poly's to make room for some new things, you can guess which ones were sold.

Granted, I think the DSI stuff is great and I would own them again in a minute if I had the room and need, but indeed the oldies have a glorious sound. I have no idea what it is, but I could never get close to the sound of either from the new guys..not that I sat around trying to do so.

I'll also add, that for my purposes, tuning is not an issue. Just hit the tune button at the beginning of a session and everything is great. Can't imagine having one of these on the road, though. But obviously guys did it for decades.

I would like to get a Prophet 12 again, though. I miss that character section before the filter. Nothing I have can quite get that pre-filter grunge.

I just finished building the Deckard's Dream, and it has that timeless sound to it, IMHO. Very musical sound to it. I will undoubtably jump on the new project, both because I'm impressed by his designs and I really enjoyed the build process.

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Post by anselmi » Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:51 pm

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Post by anselmi » Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:54 pm

expander port...I wonder if it´s compatible with the DD expander or it´s something new

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Post by flabby » Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:21 pm

I'm really interested to hear what this will actually sound like.
I wonder if it will be multitimbral?

Seems there's no octave switches though?

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jak
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Post by jak » Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:29 pm

excited for superbooth. does anyone know what kijimi means?

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Post by scrumbo mcgrumbo » Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:22 pm

damn that's a sexy synth :love:

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Post by anselmi » Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:23 pm

flabby wrote:I'm really interested to hear what this will actually sound like.
me too! :goo: :goo: :goo:

I wonder if it will be multitimbral?
mmm...I don´t think so...anyway, just 1 output, so multi-timbral operation would be quite limited in use...or maybe multiple outputs could be addressed via the expander port

f this single output is mono then there´s no pan spread of voices...a shame :waah: :waah: :waah: ...


Seems there's no octave switches though?
yep, but the frequency knob is marked like zero in the middle and then 1 and 2 in both sides, so I think it´s calibrated to semitones and can reach 2 octaves in any direction

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