Pathetic state of the 5U market

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Sir Ruff
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Post by Sir Ruff » Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:19 pm

boothnavy wrote:100% what Pablo said.

I tried offering west coast modules in MU, but like Pablo mentioned, no one bough them.

I have had a kickstarter ready for 6 months but haven't launched it because I'm not even sure it will get funded...
Just a thought... I fully appreciate the west coast mentality, but that's also not something I would have ever expected to achieve (or would want to achieve) in MU. I honestly feel like MU feel best when it's working toward its strengths in classic synthesis modes.

For reference, I dabbled in 200-series Buchla--a pretty large setup--for a bit and I had one mutable-in-buchla-format module. It felt really out of place and honestly disingenuous, like I was cheating the system somehow. I.e., that was Euro-zone and it belonged in euro. Likewise, I wouldn't really expect to find a Serge DSG in 5U and I'm not sure how it would "fit". Just my 2c, but I do think there is a specific purpose for some formats beyond just their physical characteristics.

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Post by josaka » Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:52 pm

Sir Ruffs attitude here is exactly the problem
(not having a go just pointing it out)
kind of shutting anything different out instantly..how it looks how it feels
it happens over and over especially in here..
feels like you are policing 5u with your taste.. its not exactly an inclusive standpoint..(once again not only you.)
this way has permeated 5u and is a problem in a way.. when noise engineering release their (fantastic) modules there was almost a riot..(not exactly a good look) this crazy this "coservatism" is rife in here..
so its not for you..? thats fine.. you dont have to go out of your way to attack it.. "oh look it not black and minimal and has strange font and wierdly spaced text.. KILL IT!!!"
I have a DUSG in 5u and its brilliant for things in an eastern style patch..
let people try stuff..

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Post by Sir Ruff » Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:57 pm

josaka wrote:Sir Ruffs attitude here is exactly the problem
(not having a go just pointing it out)
kind of shutting anything different out instantly..how it looks how it feels
it happens over and over especially in here..
feels like you are policing 5u with your taste.. its not exactly an inclusive standpoint..(once again not only you.)
this way has permeated 5u and is a problem in a way.. when noise engineering release their (fantastic) modules there was almost a riot..(not exactly a good look) this crazy this "coservatism" is rife in here..
so its not for you..? thats fine.. you dont have to go out of your way to attack it.. "oh look it not black and minimal and has strange font and wierdly spaced text.. KILL IT!!!"
I have a DUSG in 5u and its brilliant for things in an eastern style patch..
let people try stuff..
Fair enough.... but just to be clear, I have not, nor would never shut down the "option" of having those modules available in 5U form. The more the merrier, etc. Just because it's not what I'm looking for doesn't mean it shouldn't exist :tu: It's very well possible that I would change my tune next week, in a month, etc.
Last edited by Sir Ruff on Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by 50050500 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:09 pm

boothnavy wrote:100% what Pablo said.

I tried offering west coast modules in MU, but like Pablo mentioned, no one bough them.

I have had a kickstarter ready for 6 months but haven't launched it because I'm not even sure it will get funded...
I'm curious what you offered for west coast in MU. A different device than on your website?

My dissatisfaction with MU is precisely that it adheres too much to the Moog standard of subtractive + keyboard performance. My style is rather inline with abstract west coast ideals, drones, soundscapes, etc. For instance, the 4U ethos - namely Loudest Warning and what Slightly Nasty is developing lately - is appealing but I prefer the aesthetics & larger layout of MU (no Eurohack for me!). I imagine that concurrent preference lies in the minority. Additionally, I'm a hardcore minimalist who is extremely picky about device acquisitions so I ain't keepin' nobody in business despite benevolent intentions. Flareless does offer some CGS designs, as an aside.

Another opinion for what it is worth. I am delighted this fun modular stuff even exists. Thx for the soundz.

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Post by josaka » Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:34 pm

Sir Ruff wrote:
josaka wrote:Sir Ruffs attitude here is exactly the problem
(not having a go just pointing it out)
kind of shutting anything different out instantly..how it looks how it feels
it happens over and over especially in here..
feels like you are policing 5u with your taste.. its not exactly an inclusive standpoint..(once again not only you.)
this way has permeated 5u and is a problem in a way.. when noise engineering release their (fantastic) modules there was almost a riot..(not exactly a good look) this crazy this "coservatism" is rife in here..
so its not for you..? thats fine.. you dont have to go out of your way to attack it.. "oh look it not black and minimal and has strange font and wierdly spaced text.. KILL IT!!!"
I have a DUSG in 5u and its brilliant for things in an eastern style patch..
let people try stuff..
Furry muff.... but just to be clear, I have not, nor would never shut down the "option" of having those modules available in 5U form. The more the merrier, etc. Just because it's not what I'm looking for doesn't mean it shouldn't exist :tu: It's very well possible that I would change my tune next week, in a month, etc.
no.. its just the general attitude to any stuff that is not the coffin from folk in here.. .. :)

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Post by ranix » Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:52 am

My dissatisfaction with MU is precisely that it adheres too much to the Moog standard of subtractive + keyboard performance.
I don't have that impression. I don't feel like there's a focus on keyboard performance with 5U. But, the mechanisms of automation are kind of specific. There's Boolean logic and transposition and switches to route signals and the almighty 960 sequencer.

I do focus a lot on subtractive synthesis but that's because it's so versatile. You sure can do a lot of math with a clock divider and a filter. Add some through-zero FM to that mix and you have a very versatile instrument.

I do have some opinions about what should and shouldn't be in my synth, though. Like randomness should come from noise modules and be patched with intent by me; I shouldn't just buy a module to inject randomness into a patch. And, I should make my sounds myself from fundamental elements; I shouldn't purchase a module that makes a certain kind of sound or range of sounds like a module that makes snare sounds or something. I should create that myself in a patch.

I chose 5U for the interface. There are some really killer modules like the Moon 554 clock divider and the Synthesizers.com Q961 OR module that open up a whole world of possibility when composing. Although using the word 'composing' for what I do sounds kind of pretentious.

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Post by Flareless » Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:16 am

Sir Ruff wrote:...Likewise, I wouldn't really expect to find a Serge DSG in 5U and I'm not sure how it would "fit". ...
Here's one...the CGS114 DUSG

Also.... this...

Image

I'm just getting the product page online for this so if you click the pic and it isn't a hotlink it soon will be.

Thanks for the kind shout-outs to those Wigglers who mentioned me.

My 2 cents on 5U; I do it for the love. It's my only job. I think both formats have their strengths. Last but not least...

I think people should step away from their computers for 1/2 the time they actually spend on them and spend that time making music.

Oh... and October is coming up. That means Lower West Side Studio is gearing up for its annual Spooky Sale and Raffle. Stay tuned for details :banana:
Last edited by Flareless on Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by DrReverendSeance » Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:46 am

Just interesting to see the two subjects trending right now are this one about a lack of new modules and the new 5U sequencer from Dove (which looks pretty innovative)!

What I’m seeing in this discussion is that both the users and the manufacturers would like each other to create more excitement and diversity around 5U. More videos and demos of interesting music and ideas, from both users and manufacturers could be part of the answer.

It might be interesting to have Roger Arrick’s opinion on this as well - I imagine that more diversity in the 5U market is good for his business as well. Maybe .com could support or encourage some of it - a contest or visibility on their website?

As a final comment, since my system is MOTM, I am jealous of all of the pre-built options in 5U! :mrgreen:

THANK YOU TO ALL THE BUILDERS AND CREATORS WHO KEEP THE LARGE FORMAT TORCH HELD HIGH!

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Post by Thalassa » Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:44 am

"Good" :hmm: to see that other manufacturers have the same view.

@josaka , It's true that good demos are essential but it is also true that in these times it's more about social media exposure, overall instagram. For example in my case , my facebook page has 3,5K likes , my Instagram 1K followers and my yourtube channel only 300 subscribers. If I post a small video on instagram it will have 3 times more views in just a couple of days that the same video on youtube in 4 months.

Some of us manufactures , are quite active on instagram and facebook but as I said on my original post the average age of the MU users is higher than eurorack. And that means that they are not so active on social media like the Eurorack millennials : :mrgreen:

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Post by josaka » Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:37 am

I think I tend to use youtube ae a metaphor for all social crap..:)
and yep vids and social presence are a key these days..

:tu:

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Post by johny_gtr » Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:16 am

both IG and YT audio quality is not ok for choosing buy/not buy the module.
IG is also has a shitty restriction of mono audio if you upload via iphone.

YT is better for searching demos (because it's near impossible to find proper video on IG)

Gaining new subscribers can be achieved by marketing/self-marketing. It's near impossible to get a success in it for 1-2 man engineering companies.
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Post by Thalassa » Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:21 am

johny_gtr wrote:both IG and YT audio quality is not ok for choosing buy/not buy the module.
That's the reason why all my audio demos are all uploaded to soundcloud. It also has compression but it has much better quality than youtube or Instagram

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Post by ranix » Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:03 pm

Thalassa wrote: Some of us manufactures , are quite active on instagram and facebook but as I said on my original post the average age of the MU users is higher than eurorack. And that means that they are not so active on social media like the Eurorack millennials : :mrgreen:
josaka wrote:I think I tend to use youtube ae a metaphor for all social crap..:)
and yep vids and social presence are a key these days..

:tu:
FYI neither I nor any of my friends use any of these sites anymore because they've driven us off their platforms. We've been banned for trivial things, appeals denied, and our new accounts have been banned. Things like having copyrighted audio or video wrongly identified in our videos when there is no copyrighted content present, being mass banned for being wrongly identified as bot accounts even though we're all real people, or being flagged or reported by a bunch of users for invalid complaints. These sites form lists of users to ban based on who or which channels they follow and interact with.

So you can post on Facebook and Instagram and YouTube and Twitter until you're blue in the face and not a single one of us will see any of your content. Our friends, subscribers, contacts, whatever you want to call them are all mass suspended, deactivated, or banned from these platforms. If you want to reach millennials I don't think the big social media sites are going to help you at all.

You can only reach passive content consumers on these platforms. The kind of people who don't make things. The kind of people who just spend money on junk they regret spending money on. Not the kind of people who create content. That kind of person is persecuted on these large platforms. And you will eventually find this out the hard way if you try to build a presence on them, because you will be likewise affected.

Particularly noteworthy was the time my favorite steam engine channel was temporarily suspended and subsequently permanently demonitized on YouTube for posting a video about fixing a faulty draincock. Appeals denied, no recourse, continues to this very day.

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Post by Sir Ruff » Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:07 pm

Flareless wrote:
Sir Ruff wrote:...Likewise, I wouldn't really expect to find a Serge DSG in 5U and I'm not sure how it would "fit". ...
Here's one...the CGS114 DUSG

Also.... this...

Image

I'm just getting the product page online for this so if you click the pic and it isn't a hotlink it soon will be.
yeah, that looks rad. And I've been following the 5U DUSG threads elsewhere...so as I mentioned above, it's probably a case of just time before I end up getting a WC-style module :lol:

When I think about it, I don't really have any qualms with integrating these difference "core" synthesis methods. I think my initial feelings earlier were formed by my experience of dropping a fancy digital module into my Buchla system, whereby I essentially cut out the "core synthesis" elements that would have traditionally been required to make the same sounds. That's the part that didn't sit right with me. Throwing a DUSG into a 5U system feels no different than adding a Vactrol filter.

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Post by hsosdrum » Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:10 pm

What I need that would help me decide if I'm interested in a module with sophisticated (read: west-coast) capabilities is video demos that show those capabilities.

If your website is how you do commerce then for cryin' out loud use that website to SELL your module, and that means showing what it can do. If you want to break 5U east-coasters like me out of our east-coast stupor you need to show me how I can't live without your latest and greatest west-coast offering. A big reason why DotCom is so popular is that Roger Arrick posts video demos that show what you can do with DotCom modules, especially the more sophisticated modules.

Example: Synthesizer DotCom's web page for its Q173 Gate Math has 12 (twelve) different video demos, each one of which features Roger Arrick clearly explaining and demonstrating a different aspect of the Gate Math's functions and capabilities. Ths shortest of these is around a minute-and-a-half; the longest is around six-and-a-half minutes long. The module sells for $268.

Analog Craftsman's web page for its RLS Sequencer/Shift Register features a single video demo that consists simply of the unit outputting a short sequence while a hand operates the controls, which vary the output in a couple of different ways. The sequence runs so fast that it's difficult to hear exactly what's going on, there isn't a word of explanation in the video and the entire video lasts only 36 seconds. The module sells for $299.

Based solely on the information that each of the above manufacturers has made available on their website about these 2 modules, which one do you think I'm likely to purchase? I reiterate: It's your responsibility to show your potential customers what your products can do.

And please, oh please, don't bother with Facebook or InstaGram. Post demos on your website — that's why you have one.

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Re: Pathetic state of the 5U market

Post by MindMachine » Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:20 pm

stephenmendes wrote:Hello Guys,

Honestly I hope somebody can cheer me up.

I should have gone Eurorack (buyers remorse) .... loads of modules to choose from and a growing platform.

I want a TIME DELAY ...... so I write Modcan at the address on their website modcan@sympatico.ca ..... their DSP delay 59B looked enticing ..... email is returned undeliverable no such address..... have they gone out of business ?

So I write Synthcube .... they have NO digital delay modules at all..... but I might be able to get the TIME MACHINE from Blacet Research .... they say they will get back to me about availability.

The time machine is an analog delay ..... and the frequency response (bandwidth) shrinks to 400Hz on long time delays ..... then there is the business of the quality of the analog chips .... will I get "good" or "cheap clones" ?

I cannot understand why somebody like Rpger Arrick of Synthesizers.com has not designed a proper delay module for his synth business ? ..... surely I am not the only one having this problem.... he has come out with good modules recently .... Mixer ++ and Envelope ++ and now the Curver.... but I cannot get him to do a Phaser or a Delay..... and he wont tell me why.

I got the 8-stage Phaser I wanted (Deep Equinoxe) and I love it..... but cannot seem to find a delay I can be happy with.

Doesn't anybody make a modern DSP digital delay with awesome specs for 5U systems ????

I am not one of those "analog purists" that must have vintage second-hand gear.

Is 5U dead or dying ? Do I now have to buy Eurorack cases and start over ?

Please say it ain't so.... and point me to an Ultra Modern Digital Delay ..... with awesome specs..... that I can simply plug into my synthesizers.com rig

Thanks you for reading and sympathising with my plight ...... if you can HELP find such an animal then I will love you forever.

Have a great day
Mu is alive and well and so are you. You want a boutique manufacturer to make an Eventide Space or similar in a module. Wake up. Buy a pedal interface module and be done. Or... look at what is available in Euro (like EMW, Chronoblob or whatever and convert them behind a panel). There are many solutions, but they may not be available at Walmart or Tesco.

I hope you are able sleep without nightmares. MU is fine and so are you.
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Post by levelhead3 » Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:17 am

To the op - Free State FX H9 is still in stock at Noisebug! Max it out and you've got what you were looking for and then some.

In general, remember that modular is a niche market. Obviously euro commands the lion's share of that niche, and it's also no secret 4u and 5u are niches within the niche, so to speak. And before you complain too loudly about the state of 5u (fairly or unfairly), try looking at the Buchla world.

Although that too has been changing again recently, thanks to the efforts of folks like NLM and Grayscale/1979. Still, much like the 5u folks that have chimed in here, these are also all one or two man shops.

In my mind all of these folks deserve our respect for their efforts in broadening our available tools in these niche markets - even if it's just with a module here and there. I think it's important to remember just how lucky we are that they're dedicating so much time and effort to what has to be a labor of love. Nobody is getting rich doing it, that's for damn sure.

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Post by johny_gtr » Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:31 am

I like that MU is still niche products. I like when I see that manufacturers try to find original/rare components because it adds 5-10% of "better" sound.

If MU goes the way to reduce costs (cheap panels, components) I see no personal interest to buy it (or buy and replace components to right one).

MU is a lot less popular because it's so less fun for wiggling. it's need some music skills to create pleasant for ears sound, not only self-generated machine.Euro wins here, especially in combos Clouds to Rings or new one Morphagene to Mimeohone. It's a lot of fun just to create some crazy sounds via eurorack after hard day.

What can create more interest/hype in Euro. Supporting/endorsing by modern days artists who cares about sound. Like Nils Frahm (I see he has a Moog 55(?)
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Post by Thalassa » Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:56 am

hsosdrum wrote:What I need that would help me decide if I'm interested in a module with sophisticated (read: west-coast) capabilities is video demos that show those capabilities.
Yes you are right that it's an important aspect and I already said that we should improve that.

hsosdrum wrote: A big reason why DotCom is so popular is that Roger Arrick posts video demos that show what you can do with DotCom modules, especially the more sophisticated modules.
No is not. If you look to its youtube channel its first video dates from 4 years ago. At that moment it was already the biggest MU company and it was a 15 years old company. It sold thousands of modules and hundreds of systems without a single video demo of its modules.

hsosdrum wrote:And please, oh please, don't bother with Facebook or InstaGram. Post demos on your website — that's why you have one.
You are talking from your perspective , but I know for a fact that Facebook and Instagram are really important as they are newsletters, videos etc


As I said before people in this format is more conservative than in other formats and they are really loyal to synthesizers.com.It's really hard for a new module from other manufacturer to be popular or accepted even making great videos or good promotion. You only have to look to Modulargrid and its "Popular Modules list". Synthesizers.com has 39 modules in the 50 more popular and even the "Q131 Single Blank Panel" it's almost more popular than any other module from any other manufacturer :despair: :despair:




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Post by hamildad » Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:13 am

Thalassa wrote:even the "Q131 Single Blank Panel" it's almost more popular than any other module from any other manufacturer
I use this panel as a placeholder for upcoming modules (like Dove sequencer)

so maybe everyone is using it the same way...
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Post by Henfield » Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:19 am

Wow, maybe I picked the wrong time to exit Euroland and come back to 5U (MU)?

As I look around, I find that there are more manufacturers that in the past, Noisebug is actually carrying quite a few different manufacturers products (at least that is good here in the USA), and even Dotcom is making more functionally dense modules (their "++" series).

Euro has come to feel like a lab experiment to me, while 5U feels more like an instrument. You can always interface your instrument (5U system) with outboard gear, if needed. You can even interface it with some Euro, if that is what you feel that you need.

But naming a thread "The Pathetic State of 5U", is a little harsh in my opinion.

If you feel that you want to get out, as I am selling off all of my euro stuff, I would be more than happy to buy your MU stuff!
For Sale/Trade: 14U 84 hp Euro case . Willing to trade towards MU Modules, Dotcom Box 11 case, and Moogerfooger and Minifooger pedals!

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Post by josaka » Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:58 am

But naming a thread "The Pathetic State of 5U", is a little harsh in my opinion.
yep pretty stupid in fact.. just because no one makes a module with his exact needs..
as I satated in a few posts 5u has never ever been more healthy than right now.

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Post by J3RK » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:41 pm

I think MU is just mistaken for synthesizers for cows. This steers a lot of people away from it. It doesn't help that it's black and white. :razz:
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Post by umma gumma » Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:58 pm

well, I'm all bound for MU MU Land

[video][/video]

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Post by levelhead3 » Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:45 pm

J3RK wrote:I think MU is just mistaken for synthesizers for cows. This steers a lot of people away from it. It doesn't help that it's black and white. :razz:
triple play. well done sir.

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