Moog's Emerson modular clone at AES show

Moog, Synthesizers.com, MOTM, Modcan, Moon and others..... Go big!

Moderators: Joe., luketeaford, lisa, Kent

User avatar
Dave Peck
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 3569
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:22 pm
Location: SF bay area

Post by Dave Peck » Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:34 am

Y'all are just bitter bitches 'cuz you didn't get to go to AES and play the thing. :razz:

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:48 am

Dave Peck wrote:Y'all are just bitter bitches 'cuz you didn't get to go to AES and play the thing. :razz:
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

User avatar
suitandtieguy
Hammond King
Posts: 3368
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:50 pm
Location: Chillicothe IL USA

Post by suitandtieguy » Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:02 am

if you think it's too expensive, buy something from me or Moslab or Cotk. I'm not really aiming at the same thing but as i trundle on this path my ideas change. for example MOS-Lab makes some things i wish i had in my own system but probably aren't going to happen from my department.

if i were to be the project manager on something like this for Moog it would have been very VERY different. i would have gone right for premium market rather than super duper duper upmarket retro accurate upmarket.

however, it's nice to see it done like this and IMHO Gene is someone i trust COMPLETELY to make sure it isn't screwed up. He's _it_. everyone else who has it is dead, disappeared, or unreliable.
Last edited by suitandtieguy on Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
http://suitandtieguy.com
http://stgsoundlabs.com
http://knobcon.com
suboptimal wrote:... if it's music you want to make with your modular, STG should be in your system.

User avatar
suitandtieguy
Hammond King
Posts: 3368
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:50 pm
Location: Chillicothe IL USA

Post by suitandtieguy » Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:04 am

forum fail.
http://suitandtieguy.com
http://stgsoundlabs.com
http://knobcon.com
suboptimal wrote:... if it's music you want to make with your modular, STG should be in your system.

User avatar
milkshake
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1489
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:19 am

Post by milkshake » Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:29 am

This is just a marketing stunt.

I very much doubt that Moog will make the single modules available for us to buy. The market is to small and there are others already doing it.

User avatar
paperCUT
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 698
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:13 pm
Location: Stockholm

Post by paperCUT » Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:20 am

Eurorack has exploded much more than the large formats ever did, for better or worse. Any company trying to sell analogs now has to really take it into context. "How well does it play with my current system?" no longer means "Does it have external patch dumping?"

I think Moog is crazy not to do some of the flagship modules, or maybe the whole Fooger range in Euro. Buying a Moog module at Walmart? Yes please.

User avatar
synthetic
TASCAM Hero!
Posts: 1006
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:43 pm
Location: Pasadena, CA
Contact:

Post by synthetic » Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:16 am

Guitar players cry because they can't afford the custom shop Gibsons and Fenders, too. But there are affordable alternatives.

This was a huge investment for Moog and they have to recoup somehow. I'm sure they're watching the reaction to these products. And why would they buy up all of those parts if they didn't have future plans.

Perhaps there will be an announcement at NAMM. And I'm sure they'll bring the synth there again.

User avatar
EMwhite
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1878
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:48 am
Location: NY Metro area

Post by EMwhite » Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:23 pm

Why would they have 70 PCBs for something that they only need 20 of? Because it only costs them $3 for each additional board, may as well buy 100 at a time.

If it was a marketing stunt to draw more attention to Moogfest, to the brand, to AES and the 50th anniversary, etc, then it was a good one for them. They sold all 5, got a lot of people excited (and some angry :hihi:) and made back their investment and then some.

If they move on and produce a Model 15 next and sell them for $7K-$10K each, they will be addressing the market for boutique that STG references above; and they could not have fathomed doing so without first succeeding at the Emerson thing.

Will it get to the one-off, 904a product? I think that's a big question for a number of us but remember, only about one out of 100 on this forum have a Model 55 or vintage era Modular.

Some larger group of the rest will either go apeshit building a new cabinet to accommodate the power and connector standards (cinch jones and edge connector), not to mention signal differences and standards and I doubt highly that Moog is going to have tech support department that can support such a (individual module sales) business; I think they have their hands full at the moment.

I hope for the middle ground (a Model 15) some day; maybe NAMM 2015. I also hope PPG starts making the PPG 2.3 again and that Esperanza Spalding asks me out on a date tonight.
Beware of programmers with screwdrivers...

User avatar
EMwhite
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1878
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:48 am
Location: NY Metro area

Post by EMwhite » Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:32 pm

If nothing else, this document explains quite a bit. At a minimum, it confirms a bunch of suspicions about which parts are real vs. memorex.

http://www.moogmusic.com/sites/default/ ... ations.pdf
Beware of programmers with screwdrivers...

User avatar
synthetic
TASCAM Hero!
Posts: 1006
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:43 pm
Location: Pasadena, CA
Contact:

Post by synthetic » Tue Oct 14, 2014 2:16 pm

Here's a photo I took of the synth at AES if anyone is interested. iPhone photo but decent:

http://www.jefflaity.com/misc_pix/moog_emerson_big.jpg

User avatar
ersatzplanet
Synthwerks Design
Posts: 6660
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:18 pm
Location: Seattle WA

Post by ersatzplanet » Tue Oct 14, 2014 2:33 pm

This did NOT start out as a marketing stunt. Basically it was a labor of love from a few guys who worked at Moog. It was hand made. After they made one the company then probably got involved. They had to hand make some of the front panels even and looked at 3D printing some of the custom switches. They had access of course to the original schematics and PCB layouts for the ones that still had documentation around, in some cases they had to reverse engineer some.

If Moog ever thought of getting back into making modulars, they would not be as expensive as this one because modern production techniques would be used - thats the rub though. They guys I talked to there said there were real concerns that if they did do a new production run of them, that there would be opinions voiced by the die-hard crowd that they "changed too much, its not the same". Just like the voices heard about this clone which is not the same (LCD not CRT for instance).

There was some talk about Euro versions of the Moog stuff but don't hold your breath on that one either.
-James

James Husted - Synthwerks, LLC - www.synthwerks.com - info@synthwerks.com - james@synthwerks.com
Synthwerks is a proud member of the Mostly Modular Trade Association (http://www.mostlymodular.com).
Always looking to trade for Doepfer P6 cases

cliffman
Common Wiggler
Posts: 235
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:37 am
Location: Portland, OR

Post by cliffman » Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:30 pm

I figured it must not be a marketing stunt because it's so disconnected from all the other stuff Moog is doing. The credibility question is interesting. I think re-creating the original would give them more credibility on possible re-designs since they can claim any changes are based on detailed knowledge plus side-by-side comparisons.

I really can't see Moog wanting to re-start their modular format on any mass level. Maybe they will keep supporting Gene on future custom builds since they have the parts and artwork sorted, which would mean small production/high price/reproduction.

It would sure be fun if they did some Eurorack, or built to another current standard for power and case. As much as the designs have been copied, Moog stuff made by Moog does have it's own nice character. My Little Phatty always makes me smile.

User avatar
ersatzplanet
Synthwerks Design
Posts: 6660
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:18 pm
Location: Seattle WA

Post by ersatzplanet » Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:20 pm

The only thing that the old giants of the old modular era have to offer is their legacy as far as I can tell. They can't really make a lot of money on standard modules of that era - VCOs VCFs etc - except with their legacy "sound". The problem of course is that those legacy sounds are also available in many clone modules that sound as good as the originals to most ears. The comparisons to originals always fail because even if you compare original Moog filters to other original Moog filters. they sound different from each other. The clones sound just as different.

The only way a big company like Korg, Yamaha, Roland etc. can make it big in the new market (as in make it profitable enough to even do it) is to bring new ideas to the market. There are already way too many Low Pass VCFs, VCAs and VCOs to choose from. Legacy can only take you so far.
-James

James Husted - Synthwerks, LLC - www.synthwerks.com - info@synthwerks.com - james@synthwerks.com
Synthwerks is a proud member of the Mostly Modular Trade Association (http://www.mostlymodular.com).
Always looking to trade for Doepfer P6 cases

Synthoholic
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 464
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:03 pm

Post by Synthoholic » Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:58 pm

Legacy will only take them so far maybe, but quality will be what makes these systems outlast others.

That and the ubiquitous price inflation that comes with the presence of the Moog logo.

User avatar
milkshake
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1489
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:19 am

Post by milkshake » Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:23 pm

One thing is for sure:

Every single one of us would love to own one of these synths.

Synthoholic
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 464
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:03 pm

Post by Synthoholic » Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:47 pm

I would be content with a basic Moog voice than to exceed 22U of empty cabinet.

Think about it. That synth is 132 U (half spaces included). At 150 grand, that makes each space $1136 dollars (power supply and cabinetry excluded). That is prime real estate to have blank panels masquerading as modules.

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:52 pm

ersatzplanet wrote:If Moog ever thought of getting back into making modulars, they would not be as expensive as this one because modern production techniques would be used - thats the rub though. They guys I talked to there said there were real concerns that if they did do a new production run of them, that there would be opinions voiced by the die-hard crowd that they "changed too much, its not the same".
:roll: Well, maybe they should only market them to their mom's then if they can't handle criticism? :hmm: :hihi:

I think if they properly gauge interest/opinion by asking (not lurking) the right questions and stating potential intentions on their own forum and Muff's they can get an idea if it would be financially sound to make modules again and that would lessen any negative criticism if and when the modules come out.

Maybe they don't want to put some of the small boutique clone shops out of business by having too competitive of a price point? But if they charge too much just for the Moog name on the face-plate, they wont do so well IMHO.

User avatar
ersatzplanet
Synthwerks Design
Posts: 6660
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:18 pm
Location: Seattle WA

Post by ersatzplanet » Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:21 pm

I imagine a small 5U maker like the current ones, could make a couple of runs of some of those modules for $150K. Just start with the filters and move from there. If the current 5U companies are making modules, I'm sure a firm with Moog's resources could easily do it. The only reason they are not is somebody has made the decision that it is not worth the gamble finically.
-James

James Husted - Synthwerks, LLC - www.synthwerks.com - info@synthwerks.com - james@synthwerks.com
Synthwerks is a proud member of the Mostly Modular Trade Association (http://www.mostlymodular.com).
Always looking to trade for Doepfer P6 cases

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:46 pm

ersatzplanet wrote:I imagine a small 5U maker like the current ones, could make a couple of runs of some of those modules for $150K. Just start with the filters and move from there. If the current 5U companies are making modules, I'm sure a firm with Moog's resources could easily do it. The only reason they are not is somebody has made the decision that it is not worth the gamble finically.
Yeah, they might have if they could have seen into the future 15 years ago and seen how modulars were going to take off again. 8_)

nidas
Common Wiggler
Posts: 208
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:54 am
Location: Sweden

Post by nidas » Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:42 am

It would still be cool if they would to offer single modules..

User avatar
cornutt
Fig juggler
Posts: 1383
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:06 pm
Location: Rocket City USA

Post by cornutt » Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:03 am

I'm going to be that guy who shows up at the party and immediately starts loudly voicing unpopular political opinions, but... I'm starting to feel like the Moog modulars are being fetishized a bit much. I've been following the discussion about MOS-LAB moving back towards the vintage Moog standards for things like signals levels, which is taking them away from the modern Dotcom/MU standard. I suppose that's great if you already have a vintage Moog that you want to add modules to, or if you want to re-create one. But there are reasons why some things are different now. Do we really want to go back to messing with Cinch-Jones connectors, overly large modules with lots of dead space on the panel, and VCOs that lack any temperature compensation? Mind you, if someone offered me a vintage Moog for cheap, I'd certainly take it and preserve it and see what I could do with it. But for buying new, I appreciate the expanded capabilities (and lower cost) of current technology.

Now I know I'm missing the point regarding the customers for this Emerson Moog re-creation. They're buying them for the same reason that some people buy expensive sports cars that they seldom drive, and if I had that kind of money to throw around, I might do the same. But by that same token, race cars make poor daily drivers, and that's why they don't sell many. We'll see how this all works out.
Sequence 15 -- sequence15.blogspot.com

User avatar
ersatzplanet
Synthwerks Design
Posts: 6660
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:18 pm
Location: Seattle WA

Post by ersatzplanet » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:01 pm

JohnLRice wrote:
ersatzplanet wrote:I imagine a small 5U maker like the current ones, could make a couple of runs of some of those modules for $150K. Just start with the filters and move from there. If the current 5U companies are making modules, I'm sure a firm with Moog's resources could easily do it. The only reason they are not is somebody has made the decision that it is not worth the gamble finically.
Yeah, they might have if they could have seen into the future 15 years ago and seen how modulars were going to take off again. 8_)
I'm sure they made that decision quite a few times in that 15 years. Probably every time they made a Moogerfooger device for instance. I bet SOMEBODY there pipped up with "Shouldn't this be a module?" in those meetings.
-James

James Husted - Synthwerks, LLC - www.synthwerks.com - info@synthwerks.com - james@synthwerks.com
Synthwerks is a proud member of the Mostly Modular Trade Association (http://www.mostlymodular.com).
Always looking to trade for Doepfer P6 cases

User avatar
synthetic
TASCAM Hero!
Posts: 1006
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:43 pm
Location: Pasadena, CA
Contact:

Post by synthetic » Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:54 pm

JohnLRice wrote: Yeah, they might have if they could have seen into the future 15 years ago and seen how modulars were going to take off again.
Let's be realistic. There's no way that the modular business could be bigger than the synth business, or even the pedal business. It is a ton of work for not a huge market. They've done the R&D, but manufacturing and sales is a whole 'nother thing. Best case we're looking at a limited edition handbuilt custom shop modular system for big money. 94% of people don't even see the point of a Voyager, let alone a modular system.

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:33 pm

synthetic wrote:
JohnLRice wrote: Yeah, they might have if they could have seen into the future 15 years ago and seen how modulars were going to take off again.
Let's be realistic. There's no way that the modular business could be bigger than the synth business, or even the pedal business. It is a ton of work for not a huge market. They've done the R&D, but manufacturing and sales is a whole 'nother thing. Best case we're looking at a limited edition handbuilt custom shop modular system for big money. 94% of people don't even see the point of a Voyager, let alone a modular system.
Reality is today there are now about 20 part time to full time 5U modular businesses and probably 100 eurorack, not to mention FRAC, Serge and Buchla etc. 15 years ago there were only 1 to 3 each? Impressive growth that continues to grow. If they would have jumped in from the beginning Moog could have had probably 20% to a majority of the modular synth market but they waited too long. Eurorack modulars at least are like the new 'electric guitar', due in part to the internet and acceptance of music that takes little or no training to start producing once you have minimal equipment (noise, drone, ambient, etc) Individual modules are relatively cheap and system building is highly addictive. Sure, the bubble may burst at some point but the growth is far from over. Unfortunately Moog waited far too long and making multiple copies of someone else's customized system to sell at ridiculous prices seems like a poorly thought out move to me. :soapbox:

User avatar
alt-mode
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 341
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:31 am
Location: Massachusetts

Post by alt-mode » Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:18 pm

I think synthetic has it right. The purpose of this project is not to serve the modular community but as great PR and adding to the "Moog mystique". They 5 units will more than pay for the work done and will keep it very 'custom shop' focused. They also have options open later, if they so choose.

The exact cloning was on purpose to avoid any complaints that it isn't like the original (Emerson's, that is).

Eric

Post Reply

Return to “5U Format Modules”