Triple Waveshaper vs. Wave Multiplier

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jamb
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Triple Waveshaper vs. Wave Multiplier

Post by jamb » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:11 am

I've been thinking about a one panel serge system for quite some time now.. picked up the BOG in the meantime to learn a bit about the format, and it's been a blast. i must say the wave mult on there is one of my favorites. it adds so much. so i made up my mind on the animate a while back, and have vacillated between that and the animal or possibly creature+audio interface. i want to process external audio, which excludes the animal, but what draws me to the animal is the wave mult + two dedicated oscillators.... but the other key feature i want from this synth is using it with my drum kit, whether that be processing the sound of the drums, or triggering, i'm not entirely sure yet... it still seems like animate may be best for that, and rex agrees. back to the point of the thread though, do the triple waveshaper and the wave mult. even compare? i know the wave mult rules, but what about the triple waveshaper? tips?

:tu:

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Nils
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Re: Triple Waveshaper vs. Wave Multiplier

Post by Nils » Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:47 am

jamb wrote:I want to process external audio, which excludes the animal
Why? There are loads of options for external processing on the Animal.
The transient generators can even generate triggers from incoming audio.
You do lose the WAD though.

Can't help you with the Waveshaper as I've never tried it, but the Multiplier does rule :tu: With complex signals like drum sounds, the wave mult effect resembles distortion.

But if you've already got the BOG, you might be covered as far as multipliers go?

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Post by Scories » Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:59 am

I'm in a similar situation. I've got the AudioInterface + Creature setup and I had more fun with it than the Animal... but that's just me. The RES EQ is fantastic for nailing strange pseudo-acoustic sounds and the DUSGs are great as oscillators of flexible modules. However, it is harder to get funky/tonal interactions. With the preamp detector, you can speed a clock, increase a VCA, triggering the SSG, but you can't for instance trigger a tonal sequence. Therefore, adding a SQP and/or a Gator would make a complete setup. But that's more than 2 panels...

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Post by prscrptn » Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:32 am

My vote would be Audio Interface/Wav-Pro for a good processing set-up.

The parts of these two modules compliment each other quite well...

The Wave Shaper's good at smoothing out processed signals.

The Ring sounds wonderful, probably the best I've heard.

Soup Kitchen is another option, but more expensive.

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Post by jamb » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:17 am

Nils wrote:
jamb wrote:I want to process external audio, which excludes the animal
Why? There are loads of options for external processing on the Animal.
The transient generators can even generate triggers from incoming audio.
You do lose the WAD though.

Can't help you with the Waveshaper as I've never tried it, but the Multiplier does rule :tu: With complex signals like drum sounds, the wave mult effect resembles distortion.

But if you've already got the BOG, you might be covered as far as multipliers go?
I'm just speaking in terms of the Pre-Amp detector.. seems highly useful for processing / creating triggers / envelope following external sounds. I could just use my Blacet I/O, but one of the reasons for getting into serge is consolidating my rig into something more self-contained...

As soon as I make the move, I may part ways with the BOG, though I love it...

Scories wrote:I'm in a similar situation. I've got the AudioInterface + Creature setup and I had more fun with it than the Animal... but that's just me. The RES EQ is fantastic for nailing strange pseudo-acoustic sounds and the DUSGs are great as oscillators of flexible modules. However, it is harder to get funky/tonal interactions. With the preamp detector, you can speed a clock, increase a VCA, triggering the SSG, but you can't for instance trigger a tonal sequence. Therefore, adding a SQP and/or a Gator would make a complete setup. But that's more than 2 panels...
Scories so you owned both AudioInterface+Creature and the Animal ?

RES EQ looks highly useful... I tend to gravitate towards noisier /distortion producing modules so maybe I'd side with the wave-mults in this situation, but just hard to say without trying it.

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Post by jamb » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:22 am

by the way, i wouldn't sweat missing out on the WAD.. i know that name is tossed around like it's engraved on the side of the holy grail or something, but honestly i'd prefer another VCO in its place on the Animate.

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Post by jamb » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:03 pm

hah nils, is this your beautiful image of the animoo?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2513/414 ... c1a434.jpg

more i think about this, the more i'm drawn to just getting an animal... seems like it's hard to lose on it.. i would like to have the DUSG tho. seems strange that it's not on the animal...

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Post by Nils » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:26 pm

jamb wrote:hah nils, is this your beautiful image of the animoo?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2513/414 ... c1a434.jpg
:tu:

I see your point on the preamp. The TG however do both trigger detection/extraction and envelope following.
jamb wrote:more i think about this, the more i'm drawn to just getting an animal... seems like it's hard to lose on it.. i would like to have the DUSG tho. seems strange that it's not on the animal...
Space considerations I guess. The Animal is a "shoehorn as much Serge goodness in 4U as possible" type of job. A transient generator covers most of the slope generator's ground. Electronically they're identical, but the DSG offers more controls. The transient can be customized to some extent as well - the SIG IN can be replaced by a bipolar out, or a retrig switch iirc. You wouldn't want to lose the SIG IN though, if you want an envelope follower.


I'm biased though :hihi: And I've never played with a RES EQ. Most owners seem to adore it.

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Post by jamb » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:30 pm

i think if i stuck with my blacet i/o i wouldn't really need the pre-amp detector.. plus there are other ways of amplifying signals into the serge... who knows where serge exploration will take me-- i think starting with the synth that offers 'as much Serge goodness in 4u as possible" is the place to start... it is pretty damn similar to the BOG though...

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Post by Scories » Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:56 pm

jamb wrote:Scories so you owned both AudioInterface+Creature and the Animal ?

RES EQ looks highly useful... I tend to gravitate towards noisier /distortion producing modules so maybe I'd side with the wave-mults in this situation, but just hard to say without trying it.
Yes, I owned them both, but not at the same time. I don't have the Animal anymore. The RES EQ is not the best choice for noisy stuff indeed. The Animate is an other good choice for noise, but personally, I would not choose anything that does not has the Smooth Stepped Generator and the VCQF within Serge.

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Post by chrisso » Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:35 pm

I did a lot of drum processing with Serge, back in the custom panel days.
Never owned the Waveshaper, but the Wavemultiplier is a fantastic Serge module, one of the best.
I also loved the ResEQ, but more as a radical EQ. The above is right, it isn't nasty/dirty. Actually quite hi-fi and sweet. Extremely powerful in terms of tone shaping though, and stunning on drums.

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Post by noobyscooby » Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:25 pm

Wave multiplier is like a gift from synthesizer Jesus. So amazing whether used subtly or to completely bring the house down.

Waveshapers are alright but such a subtle effect. I have a couple of them in my DIY modular and a couple in the Modcan A module "Morph/Peak Trough" and as others have said it's more for smoothing out sounds and adding a little movement to waves than anything.

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Post by Scories » Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:39 pm

About the Audio Interface : The noisiest thing on this module must be the comparator. It can be used as an extreme PWM and can easily turn any wave into dust.

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Post by richard » Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:14 pm

...yet as it shreds your wave it still sounds expensive

:tu:
Bastard Science Vol.1 and 2 (Hordik, Buchla, Serge, EMS, Oberheim) https://soundanatomy.bandcamp.com/album ... ence-vol-1
https://soundanatomy.bandcamp.com/album ... ence-vol-2

Tales from the Voodoo Box (EMS Synthi A solos) https://soundanatomy.bandcamp.com/album ... ynthesiser

Richard Scott - Several Circles https://cuspeditions.bandcamp.com/album ... al-circles

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Post by Scories » Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:24 pm

richard wrote:...yet as it shreds your wave it still sounds expensive

:tu:
Yes, some kind of high end aliasing. :)

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Post by theboddy » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:31 am

I've got the Multiplier in an Animal and the Waveshaper in a custom panel.

The former is certainly more extreme and is certainly one of the best and most flexible of all Serge function blocks.

The Waveshaper is nice too but I've found it far more subtle up to now. It seems to prefer harmonically complex waveforms (saw) and when modulated can take out and phase through harmonics in very pleasing ways.

So I'd say the Multiplier is better for treating external sources and creating more extreme effects.

If you get a signal up to line level can't you just feed it straight into the Animal - unless you want to do things such as envelope & trigger extraction I'm not sure if the Audio Interface is essential. Assuming ofc you have some way of getting said signal in on a banana cable.

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Post by confusional » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:24 am

Scories wrote:The Animate is an other good choice for noise, but personally, I would not choose anything that does not has the Smooth Stepped Generator and the VCQF within Serge.
Super agree. Though I love the Wave Multipliers, if a Serge Modular system doesn't have an S/SG and VCQF, I'm not interested. Fortunately, the Animal is a single panel that contains all of the above.

I think people starting out tend to overlook all of the CV inputs in these audio modifier modules. Feed an S/SG or DTG, etc. into the Wave Multipliers and then... :hail:

theboddy wrote: If you get a signal up to line level can't you just feed it straight into the Animal - unless you want to do things such as envelope & trigger extraction I'm not sure if the Audio Interface is essential. Assuming ofc you have some way of getting said signal in on a banana cable.
Exactly. The pre-amp detector is handy, but a basic audio mixer and some banana-to-1/4" or 1/8" cables (which Rex sells) is all you need.

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Post by ModHiisi » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:30 am

Just out of curiosity, why no love for the WAD..?

Maybe you know all this already, but:

Personally. Much to my surprise (as, at first, i just sort of 'ended up' with it..) , i've found it to be THE audio mangler supreme!

For example. Often find myself using it closer to the effect of some eccentric reverb... With, to my ears, very unique and brilliant results. Or for just plain colouring the sound etc...

An yeah, it definitely has it's own 'character' (to say the least..). And i wouldn't call it either 'dirty' OR 'clean' sounding per se... But nevertheless, i've found it pretty much universally usable... The delay time's not too long. But i don't think it was designed for that, or that it should necessarily be used accordingly...

Although. It can be crazily versatile and classy 'delay' too!

(patching possibilities are many, cv, audio... Also, it can be 'auto patched' to be a self contained audio source. Et effing c...) :viking:

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Post by andrewF » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:33 am

theboddy wrote:
The Waveshaper is nice too but I've found it far more subtle up to now. It seems to prefer harmonically complex waveforms (saw) and when modulated can take out and phase through harmonics in very pleasing ways.
I always thought this too, but recently got the tip: patch all three in series :party:

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Post by ModHiisi » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:40 am

andrewF wrote:
theboddy wrote:
The Waveshaper is nice too but I've found it far more subtle up to now. It seems to prefer harmonically complex waveforms (saw) and when modulated can take out and phase through harmonics in very pleasing ways.
I always thought this too, but recently got the tip: patch all three in series :party:
Yeah, you can get it sound pretty gritty that way. Have used it for fuzzing up a guitar (with seriously effective results.!).

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Post by theboddy » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:54 am

Sure the in series mode on the Waveshaper can make it more extreme but it never scales the heights of utter sonic devastation achievable with the Multiplier - especially if you take advantage of the feedback looping possibilities that module offers.

They're both good though.

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Post by confusional » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:58 am

ModHiisi wrote:Just out of curiosity, why no love for the WAD..?

Maybe you know all this already, but:

Personally. Much to my surprise (as, at first, i just sort of 'ended up' with it..) , i've found it to be THE audio mangler supreme!

For example. Often find myself using it closer to the effect of some eccentric reverb... With, to my ears, very unique and brilliant results. Or for just plain colouring the sound etc...

An yeah, it definitely has it's own 'character' (to say the least..). And i wouldn't call it either 'dirty' OR 'clean' sounding per se... But nevertheless, i've found it pretty much universally usable... The delay time's not too long. But i don't think it was designed for that, or that it should necessarily be used accordingly...

Although. It can be crazily versatile and classy 'delay' too!

(patching possibilities are many, cv, audio... Also, it can be 'auto patched' to be a self contained audio source. Et effing c...) :viking:
Heaps of love over here for the WAD. It's a patch-programming thing of sonic wonder. If I ever decide I want to stop saving up for a Soup Kitchen then I'll break down and get a WAD m-class again.

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Post by jamb » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:46 am

hmm, learning a lot here--glad i posted. thanks everyone.

i was playing around with some free drumming recordings on my tascam 4 track and doing an effects send into my BOG.. the wave mult really crunches up the sound of the drums - it's as if i've been starving the poor thing of its nutrients- drums! somehow i have the feeling though that processing drums with the triple waveshaper may in fact be more dynamic and useful. but who knows, i should just drive over to Hartland and try out for myself...

after reading through this thread, i'm feeling like I really can't go wrong with either ANIMAL or ANIMATE for overall drum/synth interaction and that I should probably go with one of those over creat/audINT. remember now i only want/ could ever afford/ ONE STS panel, and since I have so much other gear, (i.e. syncussion, bunch o blacets, wiards...) i'm really going to be asking for a lot of ineraction/processing capabilities out of this panel. WAD sounds awesome, but confusional makes some good points about the wave mult/ SSG and VQVCF.... seems like those may be more crucial in a one-panel system than a WAD.... argh

Animal/Animate, guess I'll just go with whatever pops up first on the BST?!
:despair: :guinness:

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Post by ear ear » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:01 am

andrewF wrote:
theboddy wrote:
The Waveshaper is nice too but I've found it far more subtle up to now. It seems to prefer harmonically complex waveforms (saw) and when modulated can take out and phase through harmonics in very pleasing ways.
I always thought this too, but recently got the tip: patch all three in series :party:
Wasn't the waveshaper originally designed as a saw-to-sine shaper? You can see this rationale in Dmitri's Voice of the Slew panel. There's a good post somewhere here or on Quadslope that describes using the multipliers and waveshapers together in a one-giveth-the-other-taketh-away kind of style. But my search-fu is weak today.... I can't find it. Bugger. It mentioned trimmers being adjusted for least distortion, and drilling the panel to bring these out to pots for wiggling. Seems strangely awkward to spec these two together in STS shop panels. Imagine a Blue Voice with waveshapers in place of the second PVCO....
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Post by Scories » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:33 pm

I have no experience with the waveshaper but I heard that it sounds best with pure sustained sounds.. such as the flute.

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