Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

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batchas
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by batchas » Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:22 am

luchog wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:49 pm
IMO the big advantage of the WAD, and Reticon SAD delays in general, is how clean the sound is.
The relativity of all things and the way we individually interpret the world or what surrounds us is something which always fascinated me. And even more while getting older or observing more and more my mind.

Personally I consider the WAD as very dirty and noisy. The Buchla 288 beats it, but compared to my 2 x WADs, my old Memory Man with MN3005 sounds clean :hihi:

I write this comment not to say it is noisy and you're wrong, but simply to put some nuance, as obv. it's about sensitivity, feelings, experience and so on, or I'd need to make scientific measurements if I wanted to prove or affirm this or that.

I like very much your comment because you use "IMO" in your sentence. And this is something I really appreciate. Something very useful in non-violent or constructive communication. I often miss this "IMO", or "IMHO", "I think", "Personally I think" when I read threads, or posts on internet.
So @luchog :hail:

Plus, reading your comment and reacting here makes me think I should go back on the WAD a bit, cause I didn't play it for so long, having in mind (remembering) I always go into noise, brutal sound or Karplus kindof sound when I use it (not a bad thing, but I have my moments...).
Or I need to filter the noise and then a lot of the higher frequencies are lost...
Anyway, I'll report back if I changed my mind about the ("noisy/clean") RETICONS, once I played a bit with the WAD again :guinness:

luchog, you motivated me :sb:
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revtor
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by revtor » Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:08 am

Thanks Luchog!
Fellow North Jersey Synthaholic

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luchog
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by luchog » Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:56 am

batchas wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:22 am
luchog wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:49 pm
IMO the big advantage of the WAD, and Reticon SAD delays in general, is how clean the sound is.
Plus, reading your comment and reacting here makes me think I should go back on the WAD a bit, cause I didn't play it for so long, having in mind (remembering) I always go into noise, brutal sound or Karplus kindof sound when I use it (not a bad thing, but I have my moments...).
Or I need to filter the noise and then a lot of the higher frequencies are lost...
Anyway, I'll report back if I changed my mind about the ("noisy/clean") RETICONS, once I played a bit with the WAD again :guinness:

luchog, you motivated me :sb:
The WAD will definitely get dirty if pushed far enough. Crank up the feedback and it gets nicely crunchy; but nowhere near as dirty as my Doepfer A-188-1D. The important thing to remember is that all BBD-based delays have high-frequency clock noise, that's unavoidable, and why they're best paired with a low-pass filter. A lot is going to depend on the implementation of the WAD as well; an STS WAD will sound different from a CGS WAD. And the WAD channel A is definitely a K-S beast from what I've heard of it.

As with everything in this hobby, it's all about personal preference, and fiddling with things long enough to learn all their subtle little intricacies -- something I cannot claim to have done so far, but I'm working on it. :hihi:

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dksynth
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by dksynth » Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:12 pm

@luchog and @batchas

something I like about Serge in general is how completely it managed to be flexible.
the WAD is no exception.
Two artists with broad experience walk away with completely different ways of using it :)

myself I am loving the kind of hard edged flanging it can do, and the longer delays get very granular as well and great for texture behind other stuff.


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rampy
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by rampy » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:13 pm

I've finally gotten my CGS WAD up and running after months of procrastination. I can't seem to tame the feedback. The knob is useful between about 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock. Outside of this there is uncontrollable feedback. I've tried various trimmer setting to no avail. Any words of wisdom?

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dksynth
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by dksynth » Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:50 am

rampy wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:13 pm
I've finally gotten my CGS WAD up and running after months of procrastination. I can't seem to tame the feedback. The knob is useful between about 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock. Outside of this there is uncontrollable feedback. I've tried various trimmer setting to no avail. Any words of wisdom?
reduce the gain of the feedback path.

I had the opposite problem, not enough feedback, I reduced the value of R4 (220k).

You could try increasing yours to tame the feedback to get the self-oscillation point a bit further out.

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luchog
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by luchog » Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:09 am

dksynth wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:12 pm
@luchog and @batchas

something I like about Serge in general is how completely it managed to be flexible.
the WAD is no exception.
Two artists with broad experience walk away with completely different ways of using it :)
Yeah, that's definitely the fun part of Serge. Although I can't say my experience all that broad, necessarily, and I'm still learning the ins and outs; but I certainly appreciate that flexibility.

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dksynth
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by dksynth » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:17 pm

So after a first take this is what I have ended up with. They are being ordered this week and if they sound ok in my unit I will hit up Batchas and the other members who wanted to try it.

It will require board level modifications.

I have used gate drivers recommended to me who says they performed very well at speeds far beyond what the WAD hits.
The WAD onboard clock has to be modified to run double speed.
All bias resistors need to be removed.
4x1024 stage BBDs are run at double speed to match the 4x512 stage BBDs on the original.
This Board should duplicate original function.

Fingers crossed :)
WAD adapt v2.0 BOTTOM.png
WAD adapt v2.0 TOP.png
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Last edited by dksynth on Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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batchas
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by batchas » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:24 am

dksynth wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:17 pm
Fingers crossed :)
:tu:
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Nisse_D
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by Nisse_D » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:43 pm

Been following this with great interest! Sorry if I’m being slow here, but this would potentially replace both of the SAD’s in the wad?. If so, history is being made and we should all sign a petition for Elby to reissue the WAD boards 😀👌

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dksynth
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by dksynth » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:38 pm

Nisse_D wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:43 pm
Been following this with great interest! Sorry if I’m being slow here, but this would potentially replace both of the SAD’s in the wad?. If so, history is being made and we should all sign a petition for Elby to reissue the WAD boards 😀👌
This board would replace both, yeah.

It would be great if Elby reissued the boards but these fit original STS boards or reproductions of same, not sure if CGS version was the same spacing.

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by Nisse_D » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:40 am

dksynth wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:38 pm
Nisse_D wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:43 pm
Been following this with great interest! Sorry if I’m being slow here, but this would potentially replace both of the SAD’s in the wad?. If so, history is being made and we should all sign a petition for Elby to reissue the WAD boards 😀👌
This board would replace both, yeah.

It would be great if Elby reissued the boards but these fit original STS boards or reproductions of same, not sure if CGS version was the same spacing.
Pretty certain its not but I would assume you could solve that with ”a few” wires. Great stuff either way :)

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levelhead3
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by levelhead3 » Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:04 am

dksynth wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:38 pm
It would be great if Elby reissued the boards but these fit original STS boards or reproductions of same, not sure if CGS version was the same spacing.
I have an unpopulated Elby board and would be happy to measure pin spacing/whatever if that would be of any use.

Total self interest of course. :hide:

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MindMachine
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by MindMachine » Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:10 pm

dksynth wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:12 pm
@luchog and @batchas

something I like about Serge in general is how completely it managed to be flexible.
the WAD is no exception.
Two artists with broad experience walk away with completely different ways of using it :)

myself I am loving the kind of hard edged flanging it can do, and the longer delays get very granular as well and great for texture behind other stuff.

I think it is one of the best flangers I have ever heard. The WAD and cleaner A/DA Flanger being my favorite analog flangers.

Using the WAD as a set and forget effect is not it's strong suit among the thousands of options today (fewer as stand alone modules). Fading it in with a VCA, or panning the outs to left and right with VCA control, or proceesing waveforms, etc. gets it even weirder.

Doubling, flanging and slapback are easy. Echoes are harder. Using it as a processor (not an effect) is where it shines and gets different.
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Revok
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by Revok » Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:05 am

Nice work, dksynth! Maybe Low-Gain can convince Elby to do another run.

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