Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

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The Disquiet
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Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by The Disquiet » Mon May 11, 2020 8:35 am

I have an issue with my Klangzeit m-panel; the ‘Delay B’ output on the WAD suddenly stopped working :cry: (the rest of the panel still functions fine)

I've emailed Rex but didn't get a reply as of yet (is he still using the '@sbcglobal.net' address..?)

Does any of you know of a place that repairs Serge panels in Europe? Preferable close to The Netherlands?

Thanks!

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by djs » Mon May 11, 2020 9:20 am

Are the SAD1024 chips socketed? If so, can you try putting the B one into the A socket? Hopefully it's not a dead SAD chip, but if the problem follows the chip, it's very possible.
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by luchog » Mon May 11, 2020 9:32 am

The Disquiet wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 8:35 am
I have an issue with my Klangzeit m-panel; the ‘Delay B’ output on the WAD suddenly stopped working :cry: (the rest of the panel still functions fine)

I've emailed Rex but didn't get a reply as of yet (is he still using the '@sbcglobal.net' address..?)

Does any of you know of a place that repairs Serge panels in Europe? Preferable close to The Netherlands?

Thanks!
I'm having this exact same problem with my Animate panel. Delay A works fine, Flanging works fine, but the Delay B channel doesn't work. I sent it in to Rex to get it fixed, and he returned it about a week and a half ago saying it was fixed, but it's still having the same problem. I've emailed him, but I haven't been able to get a response from him since. Going to try calling again in the next day or two if I can't get an email response.

In my case, it works intermittently. If I leave the panel completely disconnected from the power supply for at least 45 minutes, then Delay B starts working again. Once I reconnect the power and start using the panel, the output from Delay B gradually drops over the course of about 30 minute, until I no longer get any sound out at all. Are you seeing the same issue?
Last edited by luchog on Mon May 11, 2020 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by luchog » Mon May 11, 2020 9:34 am

mispost

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by cebec » Mon May 11, 2020 9:51 am

It's not an uncommon issue with WADs. They may be perfectly calibrated in the shop but during shipping or after lack of use, temperature changes, etc., they get out of calibration. There are two trimmers, I think, on the WAD boards that you must adjust until you get the right response for the B output. I'm butchering this but hopefully someone who remembers the exact process can chime in, or Rex responds. I had to do this on mine shortly after I got it but haven't needed to touch it since (>10 years).

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by The Disquiet » Mon May 11, 2020 12:44 pm

ok great, thanks for the feedback, I'll wait for Rex's reply. I hope its a trimming issue!

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by The Disquiet » Mon May 11, 2020 12:48 pm

luchog wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 9:32 am
In my case, it works intermittently. If I leave the panel completely disconnected from the power supply for at least 45 minutes, then Delay B starts working again. Once I reconnect the power and start using the panel, the output from Delay B gradually drops over the course of about 30 minute, until I no longer get any sound out at all. Are you seeing the same issue?
No mine dropped out in the middle of a wiggle session and haven't worked since.

I'll try swapping the chips, that is if I can find them.... anyone happen to have a photo of what I should switch? And can I just pull them out? Sorry, not completely untechnical but not ultra technical either...

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by djs » Mon May 11, 2020 12:53 pm

The chips will have something like "RETICON SAD1024" on them. If they're not socketed, don't mess with them. FYI- a working SAD chip goes for ~$100 if you can find one.
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by the bad producer » Mon May 11, 2020 1:41 pm

cebec wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 9:51 am
It's not an uncommon issue with WADs. They may be perfectly calibrated in the shop but during shipping or after lack of use, temperature changes, etc., they get out of calibration. There are two trimmers, I think, on the WAD boards that you must adjust until you get the right response for the B output. I'm butchering this but hopefully someone who remembers the exact process can chime in, or Rex responds. I had to do this on mine shortly after I got it but haven't needed to touch it since (>10 years).
There are 3 trimmers, maladjusting one will damage some chips, so be careful!

Although this is a different PCB, the info is still pertinent

https://www.elby-designs.com/webtek/cgs ... 8-wad.html

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by The Disquiet » Mon May 11, 2020 1:47 pm

Found it, think they can be removed right? Do we know which is A and which B ..?

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by dksynth » Mon May 11, 2020 1:59 pm

B is the bottom one

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by bitone » Mon May 11, 2020 10:52 pm

Yes as stated above it's a very common problem with wads. They are very sensitive to power fluctuations, so you will need to measure the output of your PSU with a multimeter, preferably one that can measure to millivolts (thousandth decimal place) and make sure it's dead on +/- 12V. At least this is what I've done after Kevin fortune worked on my old Oakland panel and instructed me to do so.

..also if you going to try to switch them around be very careful as they are super sensitive to static..

talked with Kevin Fortune a bit more about SADs once and apparently they work best if they are kept together in batches of manufacture. So I guess this means even if you replace one it might not work optimally as it could differ from the other previous one ?? :doh:

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by dksynth » Tue May 12, 2020 11:33 am

bitone wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 10:52 pm
talked with Kevin Fortune a bit more about SADs once and apparently they work best if they are kept together in batches of manufacture. So I guess this means even if you replace one it might not work optimally as it could differ from the other previous one ?? :doh:
that might be because the bias is shared between chips.

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by bitone » Wed May 13, 2020 10:52 am

dksynth wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 11:33 am
bitone wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 10:52 pm
talked with Kevin Fortune a bit more about SADs once and apparently they work best if they are kept together in batches of manufacture. So I guess this means even if you replace one it might not work optimally as it could differ from the other previous one ?? :doh:
that might be because the bias is shared between chips.
Yes getting the bias right between the chips sounds difficult to say the least, from what i've heard from techs. I know you've built a lot of things, as well as have an animate panel, any pointers or things you've noticed help keep the WAD PCB / SAD chips happy?

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by The Disquiet » Wed May 13, 2020 12:34 pm

Rex mailed me and instructed how to adjust the trimmer of the B chip, will attempt and report back...

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by cygmu » Wed May 13, 2020 12:43 pm

The Disquiet wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 12:34 pm
Rex mailed me and instructed how to adjust the trimmer of the B chip, will attempt and report back...
If you are allowed to share the instructions it would be much appreciated!

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by djs » Wed May 13, 2020 12:48 pm

cygmu wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 12:43 pm
If you are allowed to share the instructions it would be much appreciated!
I wonder if it's similar to the instructions here:

https://www.elby-designs.com/webtek/cgs ... 8-wad.html
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by The Disquiet » Wed May 13, 2020 3:10 pm

I hope he doesn't mind me sharing, it's quite rudimental:

"There are 3 trimmers in the WAD PCB.
The one that sits over by itself is the "DC offset" parameter
Best to leave this one be
The other two trimmers that are near the SAD 1024 Delay chips are the DC Bias adjustment.
The one that is associated with Output 'B' is the trimmer CLOSEST to the delay chips.
Keep in mind just a hair's breadth changes everything. The window of operation is extremely small and setting is critical."


I tried an hour ago, no luck... :waah: so next step is to swap the two chips. What's the best/safest way to get them out of their sockets?

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by the bad producer » Wed May 13, 2020 3:25 pm

When he says 'hair's breadth' he really means it! Just looking at it funny will knock it out of whack!

The chips are sensitive to static so make sure you ground yourself first and don't wear a nylon shirt, if you don't have a proper IC puller you may be able to slide a tiny screwdriver or needle underneath the chip - but above the socket - and tease it up very carefully a bit at a time, be careful as it may pop out across the room, or pop up one end and damage / bend the pins. Familiarise yourself with which bit is the socket, and which the chip.

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by dksynth » Wed May 13, 2020 3:32 pm

bitone wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 10:52 am
Yes getting the bias right between the chips sounds difficult to say the least, from what i've heard from techs. I know you've built a lot of things, as well as have an animate panel, any pointers or things you've noticed help keep the WAD PCB / SAD chips happy?
I'm just now diving into the WAD in the panel I purchased and building my own on a reproduction PCB .... I may have some ideas later but right now still trying to figure it out mostly.

I'm also not going to be trying ANYthing drastic until I get my MN3007 adapters in to see if I can get that working ... I refuse to risk any SAD1024 chips on experiments, that's for sure!

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by bitone » Wed May 13, 2020 4:15 pm

dksynth wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 3:32 pm
bitone wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 10:52 am
Yes getting the bias right between the chips sounds difficult to say the least, from what i've heard from techs. I know you've built a lot of things, as well as have an animate panel, any pointers or things you've noticed help keep the WAD PCB / SAD chips happy?
I'm just now diving into the WAD in the panel I purchased and building my own on a reproduction PCB .... I may have some ideas later but right now still trying to figure it out mostly.

I'm also not going to be trying ANYthing drastic until I get my MN3007 adapters in to see if I can get that working ... I refuse to risk any SAD1024 chips on experiments, that's for sure!
Gotcha! Will be curious to hear your opinion down the line

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by GryphonP3 » Thu May 14, 2020 6:31 am

Trimmer B is most likely the candidate. I have built a few wads and repaired one for a friend, and that trimmer has TONS of deadzone and very small working area, and trimmer A and B work in tandem to get a functional delay. Sometimes when one is in a good spot, you adjust the other and it kills the first one. Whenever i am callibrating a WAD, i am doing it on the psu i will be using with that panel, and i let it warm up for at least 20 minutes. Then it is a very finicky little process. It seems odd to me that your entire sad chip would just die mid wiggle, much more likely that the trimmer had some kind of issue. Those trimmers rex uses are actually quite cheap and crappy in my experience (i compared all kinds of parts on my cgs boards vs what rex uses in sts) and actually the 3362 style trimmers turned out to be much more stable. Good luck anyway .. i think trimmers are the most likely culprit - they have been the one on every wad i have worked with.
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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by bitone » Thu May 14, 2020 10:04 am

cygmu wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 12:43 pm
The Disquiet wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 12:34 pm
Rex mailed me and instructed how to adjust the trimmer of the B chip, will attempt and report back...
If you are allowed to share the instructions it would be much appreciated!
Seconded!

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by luchog » Thu May 14, 2020 10:14 am

GryphonP3 wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 6:31 am
Those trimmers rex uses are actually quite cheap and crappy in my experience (i compared all kinds of parts on my cgs boards vs what rex uses in sts) and actually the 3362 style trimmers turned out to be much more stable.
Yeah, they do seem to be. And if as others have mentioned, the "sweet spot" is that small and hard to find, why didn't he use multi-turn trimmers instead of single-turn? Makes me wonder how hard it would be to replace the latter with the former, to make dialing things in a bit less fiddly.

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Re: Problems with Serge Klangzeit panel

Post by GryphonP3 » Thu May 14, 2020 3:33 pm

luchog wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 10:14 am
GryphonP3 wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 6:31 am
Those trimmers rex uses are actually quite cheap and crappy in my experience (i compared all kinds of parts on my cgs boards vs what rex uses in sts) and actually the 3362 style trimmers turned out to be much more stable.
Yeah, they do seem to be. And if as others have mentioned, the "sweet spot" is that small and hard to find, why didn't he use multi-turn trimmers instead of single-turn? Makes me wonder how hard it would be to replace the latter with the former, to make dialing things in a bit less fiddly.
Yeah i use ten turn trimmers on all my builds. Don't know what Rex is thinking ..
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