STS Slipping Into The Shadows?

Discussing some incredible modules that don't quite fit into the other forum categories.

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Vsyevolod
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Post by Vsyevolod » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:00 pm

...but... what does all this mean?

Please start uninformed Internet speculation here...

:)

Stephen




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deltaphoenix
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Post by deltaphoenix » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:17 pm

The only thing that I know that it means is that I wish I had money to spend on them!

I so know that the AI/Creature bundle is an extremely good deal. I paid more for that combo used :mad:

Oh well

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Vsyevolod
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Post by Vsyevolod » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:49 pm

You make a terrible Internet Speculator.

Fired...

Stephen




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Federico
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Post by Federico » Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:43 am

A friend of mine was checking out a listing for an Animal on ebay and upon closer inspection, i noticed Rex was doing the selling.
Very strange stuff indeed.
He is selling his panels at a discount on ebay.

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qstate
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Post by qstate » Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:37 am

The Buy It Now price isn't discounted. Not sure how discounted the reserves are (or if there is one).

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wavecircle
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Post by wavecircle » Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:52 pm

The Animal was an old Demo system from the Oakland days.
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thezyg/ (lots of Serge)

[s]http://bit.ly/2Mekran[/s]

Ciat Lonbarde stuff from many moons ago: http://soundcloud.com/polska-kliknij-muzyka

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oldenjon
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Post by oldenjon » Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:56 am

*oops should have read the whole thread first :mrgreen:
"We all dance by ourselves, that's why we only play electronic music"

http://synthscalledbeasts.tumblr.com/

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tobb
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Post by tobb » Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:44 am

3001 wrote:
CGS is not STS, and Serge is not STS. STS went above and beyond. All these clones, are they copying Serge schematics, or STS? That's what I wonder?
STS IS the real and only Serge, Rex bought the whole business,all schematics and shedload of parts stock from Serge for something like 10k ,if it was that much..

A regretfull desatrous decission from Serge under pressure of his wife that din't wanna stay any longer at that place.

Probe was the man at the right place and time to resque Serge.

jamb
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Post by jamb » Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:58 am

STS is and will be fine :chug:

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Chaotic
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Post by Chaotic » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:39 am

Seems like someone stirring in a bee nest every time this comes up
I´m one of the people building from Ken`s pcb`s and happy with that. My wallet especially. Love the process from A to Z.
But I would love to have STS if I could fund it.
My humble question is:

What is the difference when we talk about the sound?
And maybe some of the other modules to?
I´m not talking about good or bad, Thats a matter of taste.
Here in Norway I´m one of very few who owns Serge so its not easy to compare with others. :hmm:

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tojpeters
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Post by tojpeters » Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:40 pm

too bad we aren't allowed to discuss this.

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CLee
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Post by CLee » Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:55 pm

Every picture I've seen of the inside of a STS boat is the identical boards that Serge/SMMS was using.

If you want to compare STS to DIY CGS builds you need to realize that STS has a wealth of knowledge about component selections. What transistors need to be matched, what are the important characteristics of them (think DUSG). The CGS boards are licensed by Serge but AFAIK the historical experience of building them is not being passed on. But with all that I don't see any evidence that the STS builds are improvements over SMMS.

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CLee
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Post by CLee » Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:04 pm

But to the OP...

STS/Rex has a business model that he's happy with. It's actually kind of refreshing that he's not playing the "NEW-AND-IMPROVED!"... "LATEST-MUST-HAVE-GREATEST-OF-ALL-TIME!" game.

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Chaotic
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Post by Chaotic » Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:52 pm

CLee wrote:But to the OP...

STS/Rex has a business model that he's happy with. It's actually kind of refreshing that he's not playing the "NEW-AND-IMPROVED!"... "LATEST-MUST-HAVE-GREATEST-OF-ALL-TIME!" game.
I agree with that. :nana:
But I wish someone would make a comparison video. Only because I'm curious

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phisynth
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Post by phisynth » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:17 pm

come here have a beer in Belgium with me and your CGS Serge to find out

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Chaotic
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Post by Chaotic » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:29 pm

phisynth wrote:come here have a beer in Belgium with me and your CGS Serge to find out
That would have been great. I like the beer in Belgium. Visited Brugge and the beer festival a year ago

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tobb
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Post by tobb » Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:37 pm

CLee wrote:Every picture I've seen of the inside of a STS boat is the identical boards that Serge/SMMS was using.

If you want to compare STS to DIY CGS builds you need to realize that STS has a wealth of knowledge about component selections. What transistors need to be matched, what are the important characteristics of them (think DUSG). The CGS boards are licensed by Serge but AFAIK the historical experience of building them is not being passed on. But with all that I don't see any evidence that the STS builds are improvements over SMMS.
The only difference i see between STS and SMMS is that STS use all military spec ceramic caps ,like to use greeny caps and throw in here and there higher spec low noise opamps (BB).

Another myth is ppl cleaming SMMS sound better,warmer,blah blah then STS.

The circuits are identical and if there is a difference in sounds it is just because of component deteriorisation.

Its just a vintage price riser myth imo..,or an atempt to discredit STS (Rex) related to the AWESOME (too bad for Serge) deal he did in the past..

I have had a 79 serge and now a STS,the sound is exact the same,as well as Ken Stone versions,but din't built his vari-q filter (yet).

Ken specifies all the original transistors on his site to use if you want to built it like the original + substitutes,you have the choice..great stuff!

Its all good

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sascha.victoria
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Post by sascha.victoria » Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:57 pm

What does SMMS stand for?
wtb: silence

microtonal
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Post by microtonal » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:02 pm

sascha.victoria wrote:What does SMMS stand for?
Serge Modular Music Systems, the original systems from the early 1970s to the late 1980s from Serge Tcherepnin.

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MindMachine
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Post by MindMachine » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:48 pm

deltaphoenix wrote:One thing that has been brought to my attention is that STS is listing stuff on eBay for cheaper than I have heard of STS selling for new.

Right now there are 3 listings (search STS/Serge) and one is a custom panel that does CV to Midi (5 hrs. left). I wasn't going to say anything but I can't afford anything for awhile anyways. I think there was an Animate that sold a week or two ago for a decent price. Rex had relished it twice and dropped the price each time.
I wonder if those are prototypes or something. I do not think the Midi to Cv module has been offered in about 12 years or so?

Rex rocks. If he sells less panels he plays bass more.


edit - we want Kraken
FS: Pedals and Euro modules, Delta Labs
viewtopic.php?f=74&t=233636&p=3287718&h ... e#p3287718

confusional
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Post by confusional » Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:14 am

MindMachine wrote: Rex rocks. If he sells less panels he plays bass more.
:nana: + :bananaguitar: = :zen:

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Nils
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Post by Nils » Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:54 pm

Chaotic wrote:Seems like someone stirring in a bee nest every time this comes up
I´m one of the people building from Ken`s pcb`s and happy with that. My wallet especially. Love the process from A to Z.
But I would love to have STS if I could fund it.
My humble question is:

What is the difference when we talk about the sound?
And maybe some of the other modules to?
I´m not talking about good or bad, Thats a matter of taste.
Here in Norway I´m one of very few who owns Serge so its not easy to compare with others. :hmm:
A BOG and an Animoo are just an hour away ;)

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Chaotic
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Post by Chaotic » Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:14 pm

Nils wrote: A BOG and an Animoo are just an hour away ;)
I know I know Nils :hihi:

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Vsyevolod
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Post by Vsyevolod » Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:52 pm

tobb wrote:STS IS the real and only Serge, Rex bought the whole business,all schematics and shedload of parts stock from Serge for something like 10k ,if it was that much...
Personally I think it is unfair to throw out quasi facts like this without backing it up in any way. I just had several long conversations with Serge over the weekend and while wanting to respect his privacy, all I can say is the above quote is grossly out of place when all the facts are compiled. Internet Speculation has no place in Serge's private life and if anyone has any respect for the original mind that put all of this together, all conversation along this particular line would stop.
tobb wrote:A regretfull desatrous decission [sic] from Serge under pressure of his wife that din't [sic] wanna stay any longer at that place.
Especially the nasty jabs at Serge's wife and all...

CLee wrote:Every picture I've seen of the inside of a STS boat is the identical boards that Serge/SMMS was using.

If you want to compare STS to DIY CGS builds you need to realize that STS has a wealth of knowledge about component selections. What transistors need to be matched, what are the important characteristics of them (think DUSG). The CGS boards are licensed by Serge but AFAIK the historical experience of building them is not being passed on. But with all that I don't see any evidence that the STS builds are improvements over SMMS.
This is for the most part true. Though when Kevin Brahaney Fortune started working with Rex in Oakland as the main repair/quality control guy, he was able to implement several upgrades that he had been wanting to do for a long time with Serge. If you want specifics, ask Kevin himself. There were several things that were done to upgrade the quality/stability. These mods affect stability, longevity, and sometimes sonic quality. Some of them are just about putting the Dual Transient Generator in many different clothes. For the clearest comparison of all things SMMS vs. STS, Kevin is da man.

And I know this has been said before, if you are making these boards for sale, they are not DIY. You have a reputation to uphold and the price of your boards will hopefully match the quality that you demand of your own work.

And just because it comes from STS doesn't mean that it is defacto better. I just finished building two Random*Source PSU's and the housing itself is heads and tails above anything that Rex has ever done with a power supply. Like, times 5. Opening up my PS12a and my PS2a from STS, I was more than a little amazed to see rather thin gauge wire hooking up the power connections. It looked like 24 gauge though I haven't measured it yet. You want to upgrade your STS PSU? Go inside and beef up the gauge size. Also the flimsy PSU enclosures that Rex uses are somewhat chintzy. When plugging in a banana cable to the ground jack, the entire metal wall bends with normal pressure. I've had to take mine apart and bend the side back with pliers. Plus they transmit vibration to the case easier than the R*S PSU's which use two separate sets of rubber feet instead of one.

The new offerings from various people found here on MW and elsewhere are sometimes lower quality than STS and sometimes higher quality. All of them are less expensive so far. Those making the higher quality builds will eventually rise to the top like fine cream. Serge's original dream of making quality synthesis available to the average musician is once again becoming a reality.

And after all that, I still have a ton of respect for Rex/STS as well as Kevin Braheny Fortune. My entire 8 panel system is all Hartland STS. My own builds hold his quality work up as a reference. If I can match his quality, I've done a good job. If I can increase that quality, I've really done a good job...

Stephen




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GhostofAlgernon
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Post by GhostofAlgernon » Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:07 pm

CLee wrote:But to the OP ... STS/Rex has a business model that he's happy with...
Still, one wishes there was either a catalogue with everything available from Rex or an official site with everything listed SOMEWHERE!! Wouldn't it be great to see all the available panels and or options listed in one place?

I maintained the serge-fans.com for a number of years, and kept in touch with Rex trying my best to always have the most updated price list and product information. Despite promises from Rex that he'd help keep it current so folks would know what was going on, it was a struggle at best. I had a very long discussion with him one afternoon about how he had purchased a fancy new camera and lighting, and wanted to post all new pics of everything, plus add an entire section to the site about available case options and power supplies, but I never received anything. A new m-class announcement would show up over on Quad Slope, and I'd have no information to add to serge-fans. I'd contact Rex, "I'll get it to you....", and I'd never get it.

Eventually I gave up. At some point Rex contacted me and expressed interest in acquiring serge-fans for himself to perhaps eventually use as the "official" site for STS. I was tired of begging for donations to keep the site going, and happily signed everything over to Rex. serge-fans belongs 100% to Rex and has now for several years.

Rex asked me if I'd be interested in dong additional work on the site once he had the materials ready, and I agreed. We worked out a deal for a panel or two (or a discount on panels) for whatever work I did, and I sat back an waited. As you can see, the 2010 price list is still up there and nothing new has been added nor has any redesign work been done. I had a whole new layout based on Zurb's Foundation (CSS Framework) ready to go, and was looking forward to maybe acquiring a panel or two, but ... oh well. So, the site sits languishing as is, completely outdated in every way, and Rex apparently sees no value in updating anything.

Every now and again I'll get an email from somebody asking about "what's available these days, I'm interested in a system", and I forward it to Rex. I get a "thanks" back, but that's about it.

He does seem happy with the business he has, and apparently he gets to play bass as much as he wants too, but the business model is almost like Fight Club. Those that know, know, those that don't, well, never mind you don't need to know and we can't discuss that.
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