CGS514

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rampy
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CGS514

Post by rampy » Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:29 pm

Looks like Elby has gotten around to updating the the CGS114 pcb. Does anybody have any experience with this one yet?

http://www.elby-designs.com/webtek/cgs/ ... cgs514.htm

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Re: CGS514

Post by Clockgate » Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:23 pm

rampy wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:29 pm
Looks like Elby has gotten around to updating the the CGS114 pcb. Does anybody have any experience with this one yet?

http://www.elby-designs.com/webtek/cgs/ ... cgs514.htm
I bought a set of BOG PCBs recently, and I was supplied with the original ver 1.0 type. It doesn't seem to be available for sale yet. Not quite sure why they changed it to a single USG per PCB.
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Re: CGS514

Post by steviet » Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:54 pm

This web-page design is a blast from the past, and I'm loving it. Cool stuff though, you've got me interested.
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Re: CGS514

Post by Statispulp » Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:04 pm

When did elby get rid of schematics from the build pages? I guess I'll have to use archive.org to rip off old serge designs, oh well

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Re: CGS514

Post by dot matrix madness » Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:55 am

Statispulp wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:04 pm
When did elby get rid of schematics from the build pages? I guess I'll have to use archive.org to rip off old serge designs, oh well
Look here:
http://www.synthpanel.com/archival version of Catgirl Synth web site
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Re: CGS514

Post by Gandalf » Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:05 am

Clockgate wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:23 pm
rampy wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:29 pm
Looks like Elby has gotten around to updating the the CGS114 pcb. Does anybody have any experience with this one yet?

http://www.elby-designs.com/webtek/cgs/ ... cgs514.htm
I bought a set of BOG PCBs recently, and I was supplied with the original ver 1.0 type. It doesn't seem to be available for sale yet. Not quite sure why they changed it to a single USG per PCB.
The CGS514 IS a Dual USG, it just use 2 PCBs instead of one....

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Re: CGS514

Post by Statispulp » Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:06 pm

dot matrix madness wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:55 am
Statispulp wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:04 pm
When did elby get rid of schematics from the build pages? I guess I'll have to use archive.org to rip off old serge designs, oh well
Look here:
http://www.synthpanel.com/archival version of Catgirl Synth web site
cheers :guinness:

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Re: CGS514

Post by Clockgate » Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:37 pm

Gandalf wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:05 am
Clockgate wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:23 pm
rampy wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:29 pm
Looks like Elby has gotten around to updating the the CGS114 pcb. Does anybody have any experience with this one yet?

http://www.elby-designs.com/webtek/cgs/ ... cgs514.htm
I bought a set of BOG PCBs recently, and I was supplied with the original ver 1.0 type. It doesn't seem to be available for sale yet. Not quite sure why they changed it to a single USG per PCB.
The CGS514 IS a Dual USG, it just use 2 PCBs instead of one....
I was just curious why they changed it to 2 single width PCBs instead of one double width.
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Re: CGS514

Post by Gandalf » Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:48 pm

Clockgate wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:37 pm
Gandalf wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:05 am
Clockgate wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:23 pm
rampy wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:29 pm
Looks like Elby has gotten around to updating the the CGS114 pcb. Does anybody have any experience with this one yet?

http://www.elby-designs.com/webtek/cgs/ ... cgs514.htm
I bought a set of BOG PCBs recently, and I was supplied with the original ver 1.0 type. It doesn't seem to be available for sale yet. Not quite sure why they changed it to a single USG per PCB.
The CGS514 IS a Dual USG, it just use 2 PCBs instead of one....
I was just curious why they changed it to 2 single width PCBs instead of one double width.
I believe it is because of the cleaner PCB design which creates a larger PCB area and so to retain the DUSG had to use an extra PCB, otherwise it would have been wider PCB. Check with ELBY I am sure they can clarify

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Re: CGS514

Post by Revok » Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:59 pm

I'm kinda curious about the submodule thing for the transistors. It might be a nice addition.

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Re: CGS514

Post by cygmu » Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:24 pm

Gandalf wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:48 pm
I believe it is because of the cleaner PCB design which creates a larger PCB area and so to retain the DUSG had to use an extra PCB, otherwise it would have been wider PCB. Check with ELBY I am sure they can clarify
Hi Gandalf. I was under the impression that you are Laurie Biddulph of Elby designs. Am I mistaken?

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Re: CGS514

Post by synthcube » Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:34 pm

FWIW we have a number of the 514s on order for stock to replace the 114s. We believe they are fully compatible with prior projects that used the 114 PCB. As Elby updates and brings out new versions of the legacy Ken Stone PCBs we will continue to transition our stock. We are excited to see the next generation of these PCBs and projects.

Elby's choice not to publish schematics is based on their view of how the DIY landscape has evolved; I won't try to repeat it here, but it's an interesting point of view vis a vis 'traditional' DIY that was heavily reliant on schematics. That's a topic for a different thread.
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Re: CGS514

Post by KSS » Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:08 pm

synthcube wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:34 pm
Elby's choice not to publish schematics is based on their view of how the DIY landscape has evolved; I won't try to repeat it here, but it's an interesting point of view vis a vis 'traditional' DIY that was heavily reliant on schematics. That's a topic for a different thread.
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Re: CGS514

Post by hox3d » Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:22 pm

synthcube wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:34 pm
Elby's choice not to publish schematics is based on their view of how the DIY landscape has evolved; I won't try to repeat it here, but it's an interesting point of view vis a vis 'traditional' DIY that was heavily reliant on schematics. That's a topic for a different thread.
Actually, I'd be curious to hear more about this view.
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Re: CGS514

Post by Isaiah » Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:34 pm

synthcube wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:34 pm
Elby's choice not to publish schematics is based on their view of how the DIY landscape has evolved; I won't try to repeat it here, but it's an interesting point of view vis a vis 'traditional' DIY that was heavily reliant on schematics. That's a topic for a different thread.
Sorry for going off topic, but I’m also very keen to learn about Elby’s decision not to publish schematics.
Especially as a lot of the updated PCBs lacking schematics seem to be based on PCBs by Ken and designs by Ken, Serge or both, all of which had their schematics published.
Not only that, Ken wrote about ways the modules might be used and how the circuit works.
Ken’s original site/attitude towards the DIY community is/was arguably of unmatched value.

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Re: CGS514

Post by rampy » Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:39 pm

Isaiah wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:34 pm

Ken’s original site/attitude towards the DIY community is/was arguably of unmatched value.
Very well said. I've learned a TON building the CGS pcbs and using Ken's site as a guide.

I was curious to see how the 514 build/set up compared to that of the 114. I've built a few 114s and not run into any trouble, but it certainly has a reputation of being a huge pain in the ass to assemble and calibrate.

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Re: CGS514

Post by KSS » Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:05 pm

It's one thing to keep or maintain something private which was always private. Serge schematics are a great example. Even Serge schematics have become *more* open over time.

But when someone takes what was public -by original creator's choice and with full support- private it's quite a different thing entirely. And when they use some ridiculous reason like "updating" and 'DIY evolution' to support the choice, it's not a good look, and not a good choice for anyone.

Anyone but them, that is.

This is about LB, *not* synthcube.

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Re: CGS514

Post by snufkin » Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:49 am

Such a shame to see a backwards step like this, I don't do DIY if the schematic isn't available as quite simply it's difficult to adapt or trouble shoot a circuit without one. Synth DIY isn't a passive consumer activity it's an active participatory culture, or it used to be...
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Re: CGS514

Post by oldenjon » Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:10 am

Elby CGS (I don't know why it's called that?) looks to be modified / updated versions of the original circuits, whereas Ken's Serge stuff was pretty much 1:1. You might notice that there are now two trimmers per circuit as an example.

I think Ken's PCBs were born out of the Resergence yahoo group where almost all of the Serge schematics were already available. Ken only shared the schematics of circuits he made PCBs for. DIY and maybe synths in general were kind of an esoteric thing at that time, but then the analog renaissance came, others jumped on the band wagon (R*S, Elby, THC), Serge came out of synth retirement to work with some of them, etc.

Anyways, it's not like Serge schematics were entirely 'public domain' before Elby and R*S, and now that Serge is working again and we are in the era of Behringer, it seems prudent to do things a little differently than Ken did? The DIY/modular landscape has really changed over the last decade. Ideas aren't exchanged as freely as they were a decade ago, there are many new retailers and 100s of new designers across the spectrum.

For the record I would like to see all Serge schematics in the public domain, old and new. It irks me that some companies would not exist without the DIY community, but refuse to return the favor. But, I also understand that it's a complex issue, and Serge's involvement changes things.
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Re: CGS514

Post by KSS » Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:15 pm

oldenjon wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:10 am
Elby CGS (I don't know why it's called that?)
Laurie Biddulph is LB. AKA Elby.

CGS is Cat Girl Synth. Because Ken had a CatGirl graphic on an early panel and the name became associated with his work. fix typo

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Re: CGS514

Post by KSS » Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:35 pm

oldenjon wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:10 am
Anyways, it's not like Serge schematics were entirely 'public domain' before Elby and R*S, and now that Serge is working again
Certainly Serge still has the last say on the remaining unshared old or new circuits, which are therefore protected under trade secret. Trade secret law specifically protects against pulling an already exposed secret back under protection.
and we are in the era of Behringer, it seems prudent to do things a little differently than Ken did?
Separated this one out because Behringer has no impact on what's prudent. We've already seen pretty clear examples of Behringer's ability to simply purchase a unit they desire to 'learn from' and go from there. They have excellent reverse engineering capability and the financial wherewithal to support it. Lack of schematics is a *very* low hurdle for them. If we're talking about digital modules with private source code the bar goes up somewhat.
The DIY/modular landscape has really changed over the last decade.
Only to the degree it's more do-it-for-me than Do-It-Yourself. And even that is not a fully true conclusion. SDIY is still very alive and well in the classic sense.
Ideas aren't exchanged as freely as they were a decade ago,
I see no evidence to support this. Some of the older answer-ers have moved on, and venues for asking questions have sometimes changed. But free exchange of SDIY info -including schematics- is still alive and well.
there are many new retailers and 100s of new designers across the spectrum.
Yes. What is your point in how this relates to having a specific set of schematics freely available for many years being pulled off the spectrum of availability?

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Re: CGS514

Post by oldenjon » Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:13 pm

KSS wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:15 pm
Laurie Biddulph is LB. AKA Elby.
CGS is Cat Girl Synth. Because Ken had a CatGirl graphic on an early panel and the name became associated with his work.
No I meant that I don't know why Elby is using 'CGS' for his PCBs, it might help to settle this dispute faster if he didn't.
Certainly Serge still has the last say on the remaining unshared old or new circuits, which are therefore protected under trade secret. Trade secret law specifically protects against pulling an already exposed secret back under protection.
My point was that (at least here) there are new secrets (if you want to call them that) within the old ones. Yeah he does, and he seems to be OK with newer DIY releases having no schematics.
Separated this one out because Behringer has no impact on what's prudent. We've already seen pretty clear examples of Behringer's ability to simply purchase a unit they desire to 'learn from' and go from there. They have excellent reverse engineering capability and the financial wherewithal to support it. Lack of schematics is a *very* low hurdle for them. If we're talking about digital modules with private source code the bar goes up somewhat.
In some cases Behringer has done that, and in others they have done what I suggested. A lack of documentation won't stop them, but it is obviously a hindrance to R&D. Behringer is only the best example of a pervasive problem.
The DIY/modular landscape has really changed over the last decade.

Only to the degree it's more do-it-for-me than Do-It-Yourself. And even that is not a fully true conclusion. SDIY is still very alive and well in the classic sense.

.....I see no evidence to support this. Some of the older answer-ers have moved on, and venues for asking questions have sometimes changed. But free exchange of SDIY info -including schematics- is still alive and well.
It is just my opinion of course, and while it is somewhat biased towards Serge DIY I do feel it's true in general.
Yes. What is your point in how this relates to having a specific set of schematics freely available for many years being pulled off the spectrum of availability?
I don't think that has actually happened. The CGS114 schematic is still available on one of the Elby pages, and pretty much all CGS schematics can be found other places last time I looked.
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Re: CGS514

Post by KSS » Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:13 pm

oldenjon wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:13 pm
No I meant that I don't know why Elby is using 'CGS' for his PCBs, it might help to settle this dispute faster if he didn't.
If Elby is GM, then CGS is "Chevy". Panther is "Buick". Etc.
My point was that (at least here) there are new secrets (if you want to call them that) within the old ones. Yeah he does, and he seems to be OK with newer DIY releases having no schematics.
Sure. Serge had kept nearly all his circuits under wraps -and therefore trade secrets- until Ken started releasing them and after awhile doing so with Serge permission. But he can't -at least in the USA- fold the released back into the unreleased. Can't put the cat -he chose to let out- back into the bag. Same is true for Buchla, though that one has some added wrinkles due to IP ownership issues. And we need to recognize that much of the CGS lineup is not Serge, but Ken. And Ken did not AFAIK ever attempt to keep trade secrets for his own designs. Bottom line is that Elby has no legal basis here for pulling the circuits back into hiding. And he likely knows it, which is why this is being done quietly and possibly why we were 'told' not to discuss it here. Because this is not the first time a company has tried to use an update to reclaim lost legal rights.
And Behringer is only the best example of a pervasive problem.
That's what patents, copyright and trade secrets are for. Those are the available tools. Use them or not. But those *are* the available tools.
I don't think that has actually happened. The CGS114 schematic is still available on one of the Elby pages, and pretty much all CGS schematics can be found other places last time I looked.
Slippery slope. Should we wait until we're full speed halfway down the hill to speak up? It's clear where Elby is going with this. We shouldn't pretend not to notice.

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Re: CGS514

Post by oldenjon » Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:43 pm

I see. I'm trying not to discuss the legality of these matters as I don't completely understand it, just the logic/ethics. Honestly, it's easily discernible that the CGS514 is virtually identical to the CGS114 just by looking at the BOM, so the 'new secrets' argument is a flimsy one. There are are few component changes. One less 1M resistor, one less 470K, one new 360K, one new trimpot. The new trimpot is for the Bipolar output offset. My guess for the others is that the 1M has to do with how the extra Norton amp was terminated in the original, and the 360K is part of the new bipolar offset scheme. There is also one less 47k than the CGS114 BOM, but I couldn't find the 3rd in that schematic anyways.
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Re: CGS514

Post by GrantB » Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:53 am

DIY products are a lot less attractive to many of us when they don't come with the schematic. Building, troubleshooting, modding and learning are made more difficult than they should be. This only hurts the customer and obviously doesn't stop cloners.

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