R.I.P. LM3046: byebye affordable temp stabilized VCO's

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Re: R.I.P. LM3046: byebye affordable temp stabilized VCO's

Post by thetwlo » Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:14 pm

you can search this site, some parts are fakes some aren't. Kinda the same mixed results if if you search google for "usource fake parts"
Hope they are legit!
It's bizarre seeing all the fakes of even cheap chips on https://zeptobars.com/en/

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Re: R.I.P. LM3046: byebye affordable temp stabilized VCO's

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Re: R.I.P. LM3046: byebye affordable temp stabilized VCO's

Post by neil.johnson » Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:16 pm

CEM3340
AS3340
SSI2130 (coming soon)

All temperature-compensated VCOs and all active parts.

Neil
Random ramblings :: http://www.njohnson.co.uk
SSI parts and more :: https://www.cesyg.co.uk

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Re: R.I.P. LM3046: byebye affordable temp stabilized VCO's

Post by uniqview » Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:10 pm

Well, I tested a first sample, with a simple switching circuit, and all 5 transistors worked exactly as predicted, for the current levels I was using (1mA). These LM3046 devices are marked with National's last logo and a datecode M1189AB.
IMG_20200613_155536.jpg
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Re: R.I.P. LM3046: byebye affordable temp stabilized VCO's

Post by thetwlo » Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:07 pm

uniqview wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:10 pm
Well, I tested a first sample, with a simple switching circuit, and all 5 transistors worked exactly as predicted, for the current levels I was using (1mA). These LM3046 devices are marked with National's last logo and a datecode M1189AB.
IMG_20200613_155536.jpg
thanks!!

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Re: R.I.P. LM3046: byebye affordable temp stabilized VCO's

Post by The Real MC » Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:19 am

uniqview wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:46 pm
Thanks @thetwio. I will test these LM3046N parts soon. But I did find one contrarian view that they do not sell fake parts:
That review is a half truth. It's easy to say utsource has been in business for 20 years then neglect to mention any change of ownership. Asian companies have been acquiring other companies for decades then degrading their products. There are factual accounts in the last five years of utsource selling counterfeits, so yes they do sell fake parts.
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Re:

Post by ricko » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:15 am

guest wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:16 pm

again, for heater applications a dual array is of no use. but for other applications, i dont think the thermal conductivity matters too much, and the poor performance of the LM3046 doesnt make up for this benefit. i have done extensive thermal tests of the LM3046, PMP4201, THAT300, and MAT14 in exponential converter applications, and found that the high emitter resistance and low beta of the LM3046 made it the worst of the bunch, regardless of its monolithic process.
What about the ceramic DIP package versions of the 3046? Any advantages over the plastic DIPs?

Rick

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Re: Re:

Post by loki » Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:52 pm

ricko wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:15 am

What about the ceramic DIP package versions of the 3046? Any advantages over the plastic DIPs?

Rick
The characteristics of the transistors are more important than the thermal characteristics of the package.

The transistors in the LM3046 are lame compared to modern devices. Read the SSI2164 data sheet for Dave Rossum's instructions on how to produce a really excellent exponential converter!

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Re: R.I.P. LM3046: byebye affordable temp stabilized VCO's

Post by Jim the Oldbie » Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:30 pm

uniqview wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:46 pm
Thanks @thetwio. I will test these LM3046N parts soon. But I did find one contrarian view that they do not sell fake parts:
If the intent of that "review" is to validate any skepticism one might hold toward utsource.com, then congratulations are in order.

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Re: R.I.P. LM3046: byebye affordable temp stabilized VCO's

Post by uniqview » Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:40 pm

Jim the Oldbie wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:30 pm
uniqview wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:46 pm
Thanks @thetwio. I will test these LM3046N parts soon. But I did find one contrarian view that they do not sell fake parts:
If the intent of that "review" is to validate any skepticism one might hold toward utsource.com, then congratulations are in order.
I had no idea at all about any of these things. So, I was definitely a naive buyer; appreciate the input that others have apparently had with this seller. Once it was mentioned on-list that they were unreliable, I only then started looking into it, and that was only after my parts had arrived via FedEx. Researching their reputation, what I found was a lot of anecdotal information, but also a mixed-bag too. The reviews did not appear uniformly that this company sourced bogus parts.

Honestly, I did not even know this company was in China until I saw the shipping information. I usually get my parts from Digi-Key, or Mouser. My only interest in LM3046 was in sustainable initial and replacement supplies for a DIY synthesizer. A lot because the LM3046 is a really useful device, but per this thread they have been harder to get. However, apparently not impossible, nor expensively. This contrasts with devices like the LM394, which does seem really hard to get. The LM394 is a convenient example, but of course it's also a different class of device -- super glad I bought more than 100 circa 2000, and they were expensive then, ugh!

The whole issue of "general availability" has greatly impacted my SDIY thinking over the last 2 decades. On this basis, I do periodic buys of discrete transistors I've developed extensively with, like 2N5088 and 2N5087, plus the usual 2N3904/2N3906. Similarly, I find myself not attracted at all to expensive high-perfornance devices for new designs. The specifications of more modern offerings like those from THAT are certainly incredible. But I wonder what availability will be like ten years on.
Last edited by uniqview on Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: R.I.P. LM3046: byebye affordable temp stabilized VCO's

Post by ricko » Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:08 pm

The Real MC wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:19 am
uniqview wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:46 pm
Thanks @thetwio. I will test these LM3046N parts soon. But I did find one contrarian view that they do not sell fake parts:
That review is a half truth. It's easy to say utsource has been in business for 20 years then neglect to mention any change of ownership. Asian companies have been acquiring other companies for decades then degrading their products. There are factual accounts in the last five years of utsource selling counterfeits, so yes they do sell fake parts.
And Asian companies have also been acquiring other companies and improving their products: look at the Western car industry, workmanship got worse and worse until Asian companies bailed them out with money, proper QA and QC, and better designs.

What specific evidence do you have that UTSsource was purchased and degraded? If I may be frank, if the answer is "none" then please spare the rest of us from your imaginary universe, the real one is difficult enough. Might I also suggest that it is not unknown for Western businesses to buy and cannibalize Western businesses?

The important thing is how many or often bad product occurs, and whether UTSsource refunds, learns how to spot bad faith players from its suppliers, and so on. They look like they buy up unwanted stock from businesses, so that business could be the defrauders, or even that business' suppliers.

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Re: R.I.P. LM3046: byebye affordable temp stabilized VCO's

Post by meatcliff » Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:06 am

Jim the Oldbie wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:30 pm
uniqview wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:46 pm
Thanks @thetwio. I will test these LM3046N parts soon. But I did find one contrarian view that they do not sell fake parts:
If the intent of that "review" is to validate any skepticism one might hold toward utsource.com, then congratulations are in order.
It's not disclosed on the medium post, but the author of that review lists his job as a content writer for utsource on his linkedin profile.

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Re: R.I.P. LM3046: byebye affordable temp stabilized VCO's

Post by ricko » Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:59 am

meatcliff wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:06 am
Jim the Oldbie wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:30 pm
uniqview wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:46 pm
Thanks @thetwio. I will test these LM3046N parts soon. But I did find one contrarian view that they do not sell fake parts:
If the intent of that "review" is to validate any skepticism one might hold toward utsource.com, then congratulations are in order.
It's not disclosed on the medium post, but the author of that review lists his job as a content writer for utsource on his linkedin profile.
Yes, clearly a PR job. Why is a company continuing in business for 20 years a guarantee of anything?

But lets look at the Ebay stars.

For the last 6 months, there are 2 negative reviews out of 250 transactions. Neither is about fakes.
In the last 12 months, there are 10 negative reviews out of 897. 2 or maybe 3 concern claimed passing off. We dont have information enough to confirm it.

But I also recall that previously there was a Hong Kong competitor who went around claiming fraud and fakery by his competitors, with no evidence. That business was banned.

Personally, I have had good experiences with Chinese companies on Ebay. But I do avoid anything that looks too good to be true, or any rescued components: the chances of getting a fried or damaged component is just too high. The problems I have are crazy long delays, or local front shops on Ebay (a local flag is a giveaway), or the shopfronts with no stock, wh go looking when they get an order (and cancel if they cannot find it)

Rick

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Re: Re:

Post by ixtern » Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:55 am

ricko wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:15 am
guest wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:16 pm

again, for heater applications a dual array is of no use. but for other applications, i dont think the thermal conductivity matters too much, and the poor performance of the LM3046 doesnt make up for this benefit. i have done extensive thermal tests of the LM3046, PMP4201, THAT300, and MAT14 in exponential converter applications, and found that the high emitter resistance and low beta of the LM3046 made it the worst of the bunch, regardless of its monolithic process.
What about the ceramic DIP package versions of the 3046? Any advantages over the plastic DIPs?

Rick
I have some 3046 in ceramic DIP package(it is labeled as 3045) but ceramic package is not an advantage for the heater apps, it is disadvantage. Due to lower thermal resistance, ceramic package needs more power to stabilize temperature at certain level what limits it's useful temperature range.

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Re: R.I.P. LM3046: byebye affordable temp stabilized VCO's

Post by uniqview » Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:31 pm

meatcliff wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:06 am
Jim the Oldbie wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:30 pm
uniqview wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:46 pm
Thanks @thetwio. I will test these LM3046N parts soon. But I did find one contrarian view that they do not sell fake parts:
If the intent of that "review" is to validate any skepticism one might hold toward utsource.com, then congratulations are in order.
It's not disclosed on the medium post, but the author of that review lists his job as a content writer for utsource on his linkedin profile.
Whoa, good find!
Applying the LM3900 and CMOS for amazing things in SDIY 8-)

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Re: R.I.P. LM3046: byebye affordable temp stabilized VCO's

Post by J3RK » Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:59 pm

neil.johnson wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:16 pm
CEM3340
AS3340
SSI2130 (coming soon)

All temperature-compensated VCOs and all active parts.

Neil
Not to mention using the SSI2164 with a more traditional core.

I'm really excited for the 2130 though. :party:
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Re: R.I.P. LM3046: byebye affordable temp stabilized VCO's

Post by neil.johnson » Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:31 pm

J3RK wrote: Not to mention using the SSI2164 with a more traditional core.

I'm really excited for the 2130 though. :party:
:tu:

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Re: R.I.P. LM3046: byebye affordable temp stabilized VCO's

Post by keninverse » Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:03 am

I've purchased (more than once) blacktopped ICs from UTSource. To quote the esteemed GW "Fool me once, shame on ... shame on you. Fool me... You can't get fooled again."

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Re: R.I.P. LM3046: byebye affordable temp stabilized VCO's

Post by The Real MC » Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:30 am

J3RK wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:59 pm
neil.johnson wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:16 pm
CEM3340
AS3340
SSI2130 (coming soon)

All temperature-compensated VCOs and all active parts.

Neil
Not to mention using the SSI2164 with a more traditional core.

I'm really excited for the 2130 though. :party:
While the original SSM2030 was not temperature compensated (the tempco resistor was external), it's worth pointing out that the architecture of the 2x30 VCO is identical to the Rossum-designed VCOs in the Emu modulars, and in the Oberheim SEM and OBX. They are very stable in my FVS and OBX.
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Re: R.I.P. LM3046: byebye affordable temp stabilized VCO's

Post by neil.johnson » Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:35 am

The Real MC wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:30 am
While the original SSM2030 was not temperature compensated (the tempco resistor was external), it's worth pointing out that the architecture of the 2x30 VCO is identical to the Rossum-designed VCOs in the Emu modulars, and in the Oberheim SEM and OBX. They are very stable in my FVS and OBX.
Interesting.... do you have any info about the SSI2130 VCO internals? Could be useful to other designers.

Neil
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Re: R.I.P. LM3046: byebye affordable temp stabilized VCO's

Post by The Real MC » Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:41 pm

neil.johnson wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:35 am
The Real MC wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:30 am
While the original SSM2030 was not temperature compensated (the tempco resistor was external), it's worth pointing out that the architecture of the 2x30 VCO is identical to the Rossum-designed VCOs in the Emu modulars, and in the Oberheim SEM and OBX. They are very stable in my FVS and OBX.
Interesting.... do you have any info about the SSI2130 VCO internals? Could be useful to other designers.

Neil
No I don't... from the convention of the other reissues, I'm guessing it will be faithful to the original. I don't think we'll see a tempco at the substrate level though, unless Rossum has something clever up his sleeve...
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Re: R.I.P. LM3046: byebye affordable temp stabilized VCO's

Post by J3RK » Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:49 am

neil.johnson wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:35 am
The Real MC wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:30 am
While the original SSM2030 was not temperature compensated (the tempco resistor was external), it's worth pointing out that the architecture of the 2x30 VCO is identical to the Rossum-designed VCOs in the Emu modulars, and in the Oberheim SEM and OBX. They are very stable in my FVS and OBX.
Interesting.... do you have any info about the SSI2130 VCO internals? Could be useful to other designers.

Neil
Based on the current version of the datasheet and the larger of the block diagrams, I’d say compensation is onboard. I could be wrong, but it looks that way.

It sounds like it has a nice multiplier, and based on the small package, I would guess even that would lend to a bit of temp stability.

There were some internal improvements on the SSI2164 that are also supposed to improve this for the VCA based tempco. I’ve used this on a newer VCO design, and rarely have to bump my tuning against my digital synths.

I’d say this series of ICs is pretty special. Beyond a typical reissue.
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Re: R.I.P. LM3046: byebye affordable temp stabilized VCO's

Post by neil.johnson » Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:53 am

The Real MC wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:41 pm
No I don't... from the convention of the other reissues, I'm guessing it will be faithful to the original. I don't think we'll see a tempco at the substrate level though, unless Rossum has something clever up his sleeve...
I wouldn't call the reissues "faithful to the original"... pin swaps, significant improvements, new features and functions.... The SSI2130 is a radical departure from the SSM2030.

You might find this informative: http://www.soundsemiconductor.com/downl ... asheet.pdf

To avoid derailing this LM3046 thread further I suggest any SSI discussion continues on viewtopic.php?f=17&t=226786

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Re: R.I.P. LM3046: byebye affordable temp stabilized VCO's

Post by ixtern » Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:45 am

neil.johnson wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:53 am
To avoid derailing this LM3046 thread further I suggest any SSI discussion continues on viewtopic.php?f=17&t=226786

Neil
So to continue this sentimental journey on the right "rails", here are the photos of the 3046/3083 family transistor array chips from my collection:
CA3045F_RCA.jpg
CA3046_RCA_1.jpg
CA3046_RCA_2.jpg
CA3046_Intersil.jpg
CA3083_RCA.jpg
CA3083_Harris.jpg
CA3086_RCA.jpg
CA3127E_Harris.jpg
CA3146E_Harris.jpg
LM3045J_NS.jpg
Notes:
- CA3045: the same as CA3046 but in ceramic package
- CA3086: the same as CA3046 but worse some specs
- CA3127: (1GHZ, like CA3083 but different pinout)
- CA3146: (=40V version of CA3046)
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Re: R.I.P. LM3046: byebye affordable temp stabilized VCO's

Post by ixtern » Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:54 am

Transistor array gallery continued:
LM3046D1_ST.jpg
LM3146N_NS.jpg
MC3346P_Motorola.jpg
SG3821N_SG.jpg
SL3127C_PSSR.jpg
SL3145C_Plessey.jpg
TBA331_SGS.jpg
TCA671_Siemens.jpg
TCA991_Siemens.jpg
TDA3083D_Philips.jpg
Notes:
- MC3346: =CA3046
- SG3821N: =CA3046
- SL3127C: =CA3127 1.5GHz
- SL3145C: =2.5GHz, CA3046 pinout
- TBA331: =CA3046
- TCA671: like CA3046, substrate=pin3
- TCA991: =CA3046
- TDA3083: =CA3083
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