Patching Between Cases

Cwejman, Livewire, TipTop Audio, Doepfer etc... Get your euro on!

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Pelsea
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Re: Patching Between Cases

Post by Pelsea » Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:41 pm

pugix wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:04 pm
Graham Hinton wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:26 pm
I use DINSE-25 connectors and 25mm2 cable for temporary connections between cases (i.e. for live use) and get the resistance down to a milliohm or so. For permanent setups I would make direct connections in the order of ten of microohms. It's all a matter of ratios compared to the 100s of milliohms in cable screens and mains leads. Many people have noticed a loss of background noises that weren't particularly noticeable before, but once gone are not wanted back ("I never realised that Eurorack could be this good"). Do you want a ratio of, say, 3:1 with a banana lead or do you want 1000:1 at little extra cost? Even the banana lead is a 12dB improvement, but you could have 40-60dB.
Since I get some improvement with a banana lead, how much better would two stacked leads be?
Graham Hinton wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:26 pm
Also connecting PSU 0Vs together (as done in most banana systems) is not as effective as connecting distribution 0Vs together for reasons that I've explained many times before.
We all have our point of diminishing returns-- I prefer 5 way binding posts for my 0v ref connections between cases. You can use them with banana cables, but a better connection can be achieved with crimped spade lugs on 18ga or larger wire. I'd like to see some enterprising company sell a 2hp panel with a binding post connected to the 6 ground pins on a power connector. That would give a plug 'n play reference module for those unequipped to go rooting around distro boards to find the optimum location.
If nothing else, it would provide a quick and easy answer to questions like this one.
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Re: Patching Between Cases

Post by ggillon » Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:47 pm

3 cases, 0 issue
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Re: Patching Between Cases

Post by The Mule » Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:08 pm

Beautiful setup, ggillon!

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Re: Patching Between Cases

Post by Graham Hinton » Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:26 am

Pelsea wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:41 pm
I'd like to see some enterprising company sell a 2hp panel with a binding post connected to the 6 ground pins on a power connector.
That is a silly idea, you have just introduced two pcbs and two ribbon cables into the link. It isn't even bad engineering because you haven't calculated the resistance or have any idea what it should be, it's just cargo cultism imitating form without the function.

I'm sure some of the people that make buffered mults will jump on the idea and people who don't understand the purpose will buy it. Thanks for muddying the waters again.

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Re: Patching Between Cases

Post by The Mule » Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:05 am

Graham Hinton wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:26 am
Pelsea wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:41 pm
I'd like to see some enterprising company sell a 2hp panel with a binding post connected to the 6 ground pins on a power connector.
That is a silly idea, you have just introduced two pcbs and two ribbon cables into the link. It isn't even bad engineering because you haven't calculated the resistance or have any idea what it should be, it's just cargo cultism imitating form without the function.

I'm sure some of the people that make buffered mults will jump on the idea and people who don't understand the purpose will buy it. Thanks for muddying the waters again.
I’m not a moderator on these forums, so perhaps it’s out of line for me to say this, and if so, I apologize to the moderators and will understand if you delete this post. But as the OP, I feel this thread is in some ways mine to supervise.

So I’d like to say that this is not – in my view – an acceptable way to respond to someone’s post. Regardless of how “silly” you think Pelsea’s idea is, you should be more constructive and, frankly, polite when posting. The purpose of these forums (as I understand it) is to educate people, and while you may possess great knowledge on this subject, the best educators are those who inspire their students, not belittle them. I think it’s important for the more advanced members here to take on the responsibility of being teachers and not to take it lightly. Calling someone’s idea “silly” and making sarcastic comments like “thanks for muddying the waters again” is not befitting for anyone, but especially for a “Super Deluxe Wiggler” with over 3000 posts, who should be here for the purpose of fostering growth rather than lampooning other members.

Again, I apologize if I’m overstepping my bounds here, but I felt the need to say something. I mean no disrespect to Graham Hinton or anyone else. I think perhaps some of us just need an occasional nudge/reminder that we’re all in this together. Cheers.

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Re: Patching Between Cases

Post by Thorsday » Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:26 am

The Mule wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:05 am
Graham Hinton wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:26 am
Pelsea wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:41 pm
I'd like to see some enterprising company sell a 2hp panel with a binding post connected to the 6 ground pins on a power connector.
That is a silly idea, you have just introduced two pcbs and two ribbon cables into the link. It isn't even bad engineering because you haven't calculated the resistance or have any idea what it should be, it's just cargo cultism imitating form without the function.

I'm sure some of the people that make buffered mults will jump on the idea and people who don't understand the purpose will buy it. Thanks for muddying the waters again.
I’m not a moderator on these forums, so perhaps it’s out of line for me to say this, and if so, I apologize to the moderators and will understand if you delete this post. But as the OP, I feel this thread is in some ways mine to supervise.

So I’d like to say that this is not – in my view – an acceptable way to respond to someone’s post. Regardless of how “silly” you think Pelsea’s idea is, you should be more constructive and, frankly, polite when posting. The purpose of these forums (as I understand it) is to educate people, and while you may possess great knowledge on this subject, the best educators are those who inspire their students, not belittle them. I think it’s important for the more advanced members here to take on the responsibility of being teachers and not to take it lightly. Calling someone’s idea “silly” and making sarcastic comments like “thanks for muddying the waters again” is not befitting for anyone, but especially for a “Super Deluxe Wiggler” with over 3000 posts, who should be here for the purpose of fostering growth rather than lampooning other members.

Again, I apologize if I’m overstepping my bounds here, but I felt the need to say something. I mean no disrespect to Graham Hinton or anyone else. I think perhaps some of us just need an occasional nudge/reminder that we’re all in this together. Cheers.
Beta post of the week... Graham Hinton knows what he is talking about. You and Pelsea should accept criticism like logical beings ought to.

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Re: Patching Between Cases

Post by The Mule » Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:43 am

Hi Thursday. Nobody is saying Graham Hinton doesn't know what he's talking about. I know that he does. And the main reason I am here is to receive constructive criticism and advice. Nothing I've said would indicate otherwise. We all should be here (as far as I am aware) either to learn or - for the more experienced amongst us - to educate. Which is just my point.

I don't think I'm being inappropriate or illogical. I'm just voicing a concern. Let's set our egos aside and just discuss. A forum, by definition, is a place to share ideas and learn from one another, not to sling insults or sarcastic remarks. Peace.

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Re: Patching Between Cases

Post by Graham Hinton » Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:04 pm

The Mule wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:05 am
I’m not a moderator on these forums, so perhaps it’s out of line for me to say this, and if so, I apologize to the moderators and will understand if you delete this post.
If you have a valid complaint take it to the moderators. You just ruined your own thread with a political correctness lecture.
Calling someone’s idea “silly” and making sarcastic comments like “thanks for muddying the waters again” is not befitting for anyone,
The idea is silly and I'm calling a spade a spade. "Again" is because this is not the first time that Pelsea has entered a thread incorrectly contradicting something that I'm carefully trying to explain.

I don't need to give you technical advice for free, from now on you can pay for it or go without.

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Re: Patching Between Cases

Post by Pelsea » Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:10 pm

Graham Hinton wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:26 am
Pelsea wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:41 pm
I'd like to see some enterprising company sell a 2hp panel with a binding post connected to the 6 ground pins on a power connector.
That is a silly idea, you have just introduced two pcbs and two ribbon cables into the link. It isn't even bad engineering because you haven't calculated the resistance or have any idea what it should be, it's just cargo cultism imitating form without the function.

I'm sure some of the people that make buffered mults will jump on the idea and people who don't understand the purpose will buy it. Thanks for muddying the waters again.
I didn't say it was a good idea. But something like that might benefit wigglers who don't have Mr. Hinton's (or even my) level of education and experience. I did not mention pcbs, and certainly not ribbon cable. The one I built to test the idea featured 6 20 awg wires (roughly equivalent to 12 awg) crimped at the socket and soldered to the binding post*. It worked, but one with an 18 awg wire to a dedicated 0v ref connection (push-in) on the distro board was slightly better. (Tested by the cargo cult technique of turning the speakers up full and listening to the alternatives.) I am confident that a real engineer can improve on this and solve any production issues.

*R = 0.003 ohms as best as I can determine with my limited tools.
edit: later confirmed using a more accurate method. This includes clip to pin resistance. A 7" piece of 18 awg is also approximately 0.003 ohms, so I credit the (heard) improvement to a better placement on on the board (i.e. no narrow copper traces.)
Last edited by Pelsea on Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Patching Between Cases

Post by The Mule » Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:28 pm

Graham. I was afraid my post might ruffle some feathers, and that definitely was not my intention. I strongly feel that the more experienced members here should treat others with respect (as everyone should), and whether you and Pelsea have had prior conflicts is not really relevant here. So I stand by what I said. I wouldn't say that I gave you a political correctness lecture either. Just a polite request to play nice. The way we all should. And I don't think I "ruined" my thread. If you don't want to give free advice, then what are you doing here? I totally get that you should be paid for your work, but that's not what this forum is. Come on.

Again, I'm not trying to upset anyone. You're a very experienced professional and are very knowledgeable in your field. I think everyone here knows and respects that, including me. But I don't think calling other people's ideas silly is the right way to respond here. Just be civil. Please and thank you. Peace.

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Re: Patching Between Cases

Post by 3hands » Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:36 pm

I patch across 2 cases constantly. No issues at all. One of the cases is even home made! (Not by me)
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Re: Patching Between Cases

Post by The Mule » Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:42 pm

Cool, 3hands. Good to hear that so many of you are successfully patching between cases. I started doing that today and likewise haven't experienced anything troublesome. I guess if it ain't broke, don't fix it. :) Thanks to all for their input on this thread.

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Re: Patching Between Cases

Post by pekbro » Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:56 pm

6 cases, no issues here... 7 depending on how you look at it, 1 case has 2 independent power systems in it.

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Re: Patching Between Cases

Post by bemushroomed » Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:24 pm

ATW wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:53 pm
Graham Hinton wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:34 pm
Latency? Do you know what the word means?
Sure. In the context of this thread, I've noticed a slight but audible delay in gate timings when using a multed clock source to drive two gate sequencers, each in a separate case. There are many variables, no doubt. I am curious about how multiple power supplies for multiple cases factors into something like this. A better version of that question would be "how can a two+ case system be unified/optimized to preserve the integrity of shared CV signals?"
just for fun i tested this.. this is a multed clock into 3 separate cases..

i don't have Ground in my apartment apart from in kitchen/bathroom. Its two doepfer cases and one from Dreadbox:

Image

these clocks also goes into 3 separate mixers in each case before going into my sound interface (into 3 separate inputs, obviously):

there's absolutely zero latency, non-measurable... this is zoomed in as far as it goes, you can easily see 0.1ms differences if they are there (i do this a lot for drums to measure latency, there can often be as much as 1-4 ms latency from various modules).

Anyways, i have 5 separate cases (my first case is 4 separate Doepfer ones DIY'ed into looking like one big case.. it still has 4 separate power supplies) that i use all the time, never had a single problem.. but again, i don't have Ground, not sure if its good or bad for the purpose of connecting cases (i know it can be bad for other reasons).

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Re: Patching Between Cases

Post by Kent » Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:28 am

Gents, perhaps a touch less heat. It seems that the forum is working in that the users are discussing the rules of honorable engagement. Thorsday, there is no need to throw out ‘beta’. That just a lazy cliché that only frames you poorly.

Graham has always been prickly. He chooses to portray himself that way. Take it for what it is and don’t engage with it.

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Re: Patching Between Cases

Post by Graham Hinton » Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:48 am

Kent wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:28 am
Graham has always been prickly. He chooses to portray himself that way.
No, YOU choose to portray me that way. So fuck you. No more advice for anyone, I've had it with cowards hiding behind avatars who think they can say things online they wouldn't dare say to my face.

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Re: Patching Between Cases

Post by adaris » Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:10 am

Graham Hinton wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:48 am
Kent wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:28 am
Graham has always been prickly. He chooses to portray himself that way.
No, YOU choose to portray me that way. So fuck you. No more advice for anyone, I've had it with cowards hiding behind avatars who think they can say things online they wouldn't dare say to my face.
Dude get over yourself. I for one would absolutely say anything I've said to you online to your face, and if you're as pompous and arrogant in person as you are on this forum I would likely have more to say as well.

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Re: Patching Between Cases

Post by adaris » Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:43 am

Oh and let's be real, you aren't giving advice on here out of the generosity of your heart, you are giving advice because you want to steer as many people as possible towards an extreme audiophile way of approaching eurorack that results in more business for you. Which would be fine, only you aren't content to say, "this is my philosophy, this is my approach, this is what I believe to be the best way", rather you take every opportunity to bully newbs and shit on any approach that differs from yours, frequently misrepresenting the facts in the process.

So I can almost guarantee you will be back with your free advice, because it isn't really free - both your ego and your wallet stand to benefit from it.

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Re: Patching Between Cases

Post by Kent » Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:54 am

Graham's retort is so extreme (from tier 3 to tier 11 vitriol) in such a short amount of time, I can only find the exchange to be humorous. Would I tell you that you have a prickly character to your face? Yes, I would. It's not an insult. Also, real life isn't online life and the norms differ. You should take that onboard. I think your own reply betrays some of what you’ve claimed.

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Re: Patching Between Cases

Post by Rex Coil 7 » Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:04 am

Kent wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:54 am
Graham's retort is so extreme (from tier 3 to tier 11 vitriol) in such a short amount of time, I can only find the exchange to be humorous. Would I tell you that you have a prickly character to your face? Yes, I would. It's not an insult. Also, real life isn't online life and the norms differ. You should take that onboard.
Could be ... the man is a human after all. I mean I know I've failed to keep my grits over the previous couple of months around here. I have to continuously remind myself that I've no idea what someone may be dealing with (sick family, lost job, and the like) so I try to give folks some ... uh ... ~wiggle room~ (oh that was just shit) when it comes to flare ups. Lord knows I've blown a fuse a few times myself. I just hope all is well in the Hinton House. To be honest, I've been anticipating a response like that from Graham for a few years now. Folks like you Kent, and others here, have literally saintly patience. I would imagine that patience has it's limits though (like anyone). Maybe Graham is feeling exactly as he expressed .... fuckit ... I'm sick of defending myself from internet warriors ... I know I've felt that way all too many times.

Or he may just be having a bad day. It happens.

:despair:
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Re: Patching Between Cases

Post by Rex Coil 7 » Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:13 am

The Mule wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:05 am
Graham Hinton wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:26 am
Pelsea wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:41 pm
I'd like to see some enterprising company sell a 2hp panel with a binding post connected to the 6 ground pins on a power connector.
That is a silly idea, you have just introduced two pcbs and two ribbon cables into the link. It isn't even bad engineering because you haven't calculated the resistance or have any idea what it should be, it's just cargo cultism imitating form without the function.

I'm sure some of the people that make buffered mults will jump on the idea and people who don't understand the purpose will buy it. Thanks for muddying the waters again.
I’m not a moderator on these forums, so perhaps it’s out of line for me to say this, and if so, I apologize to the moderators and will understand if you delete this post. But as the OP, I feel this thread is in some ways mine to supervise.

So I’d like to say that this is not – in my view – an acceptable way to respond to someone’s post. Regardless of how “silly” you think Pelsea’s idea is, you should be more constructive and, frankly, polite when posting. (snipped)
It serves to acknowledge that many members have long relationships here .... "history" with one another. Keep that in mind when reading posts between people, especially long time members. In other words, what you might read between two people may be part of a long ongoing "discussion" (so to speak) that's been part of their back-n-forth for years. It's like listening in to a conversation between two people and drawing conclusions about the situation without knowing the two people or anything about their relationship. Just something to keep in mind. I could be wrong, and often am.
5U MODULAR NORMALIZING PROJECT (for your entertainment) viewtopic.php?t=78836&highlight=
.. given the choice between conformity and self respect, I choose the latter.
.. dominion - noun: control or the exercise of control . power . possessed and controlled domain . sovereignty . having dominion over the world . supreme authority . absolute ownership . power . authority . jurisdiction . control . command ... power ....... power .......... power.

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Re: Patching Between Cases

Post by The Mule » Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:19 am

You’re right, Rex, and I agree with you for the most part. The thing about internet forums is that you have a buffer period between your reaction to something and the time it takes to post a response. I’ve never really engaged in web forum warfare, but I can’t count the number of times I’ve been angry after reading an email, and written a vitriolic response, only to delete it before firing it off. You get it out of your system and then send a more appropriate response. I do believe that’s a better way to handle things like that.

And you have a point about previous relationships between members and ongoing discussions. I had no idea what the history was there. I really thought my reply was diplomatic though and Graham kind went through the roof. In fact I’ve seen many exchanges between him and other members in the time I’ve been a member here, and I’ve often thought that he came across as rude, pedantic, condescending, etc. So when it started in one of my threads, I spoke up. Maybe I shouldn’t have. But at least I feel that I was courteous about it, which can’t really be said for his response.

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Re: Patching Between Cases

Post by jfloftin » Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:25 pm

I am very late to commenting here on this string of posts, so here goes.

You don't have to like Graham Hinton, you don't, that's not a problem. I have been sucked in here recently with conversations/posts that made me guilty of trolling behavior to put it bluntly and am embarrassed about my behavior quite frankly and have apologized for it.

I bought a 19" rack from Hinton Instruments many years ago. At the same time, I still had my Serge Modular "Animal" panel (I reluctantly sold it (the Serge) because of a dire financial situation). The linear power supply in my rack is built like a tank. The only thing I have seen that comes close is the L-1 Power Supply System really. My Hinton has all my oscillators installed in it except for one. The oscillators in the Hinton rack rivaled the Serge in sound and stability and I can hear the difference if I switch them out of the Hinton rack. It may be voodoo but, I can perceive it having no other explanation.

So, I for one am going to miss Graham's posts personally, even if he might be interpreted as being somewhat terse at times. His advice in my mind is valuable.

BTW (off topic I apologize), he did major modifications to my Synthi 'A' mk1. It is now a very stable instrument. Here is a picture of what it looks like:

Image

The pin matrix is fully buffered (no hum whatsoever as some people have encountered when doing the buffering of the matrix - so I'm told).

Now I know that most folks who own EMS synths will groan at what I've done and remark that I possibly "ruined" it's "character" but you can always still use it in non-conventional ways and achieve great results. Also, I am not trying to peddle his products/services or whatever but his stuff has stellar performance in my opinion. I have the ModMix and the ring mods in that thing are awesome! I use them all the time.

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Re: Patching Between Cases

Post by neil.johnson » Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:36 pm

Graham's last post on MW was this one: viewtopic.php?p=3331912#p3331912

I'd like to think/hope that one day he returns and shares his valuable knowledge and experience, but :despair:

What I find particularly sad about this whole debacle is that it really kicked off when Graham wrote
That is a silly idea
I've come close to leaving MW recently, partly from seeing how Graham was treated. I'm still here, but reducing my time and effort down to very targeted threads and expanding my blocked list (that's such a great feature - should have used it years ago!)

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Re: Patching Between Cases

Post by Mungo » Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:43 pm

neil.johnson wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:36 pm
What I find particularly sad about this whole debacle is that it really kicked off when Graham wrote
That is a silly idea
As with most of the "discussion steering" around this topic its the things which are unsaid which are the problem. That idea might well be silly if you are trying to correct several amperes of current trying to flow in a 0V connection, but you only end up with that problem if you insist on a power system connecting everything back to mains earth (which is not essential, and in many cases not desirable).

All of that may or may not be true for different people and different systems.

So the idea is a very good one for some situations, and "silly" for others... the wonder of modulars. Which case is more common could be open for debate.

Rather than relying on a bunch of unsaid assumptions (which may or may not be obvious to people who haven't read through or critically examined the long history of posts on this forum) these should be said upfront. But particular users choose not to do that, its likely they would be called out as trolls or fanboy/fangirl elsewhere.

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