polyrhythm/euclidean sequencer with probability

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Mabuse
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polyrhythm/euclidean sequencer with probability

Post by Mabuse » Thu May 28, 2020 2:27 am

hello,

iam looking for a polyrhythm sequencer with probability. something with not so much menue diving - more hands on.
mostly doing experimental/electroacoustic music.

form what i found the vg8+ looks like a perfect match. specially its per step delay probability in combination with channel length is very appealing to me. but according to multiple reports in the vg8+ thread (here on mw) it still seems to be very buggy, so i tend to look for an alternative.

so far vector, eloquencer and flux looks (not available yet) looks interesting to me. but all three seems to be less intuitive because of their
complexity and interface. please correct if iam wrong, its just the first impressions from looking videos on yt. of course iam curious about other recommendations as well.
would be great to hear some comparisons/experiences . thanks.
Last edited by Mabuse on Thu May 28, 2020 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

Estes
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Re: polyrhythm/euclidean sequencer with probability

Post by Estes » Thu May 28, 2020 3:10 am

I do like to cheat wonky beats with an unstable clock, like two square lfos into an or module (maths can do that). Use that clock to feed conveniant sequencers or even a zularic repetitor. No menudiving but needs some time to find a sweet spot.

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Re: polyrhythm/euclidean sequencer with probability

Post by dbeats » Thu May 28, 2020 3:25 am

Mabuse wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 2:27 am
iam looking for a polyrhythm sequencer with probability. something with not so much menue diving - more hands on.
Maybe a Euclidean Circles plus 1-2 Branches?

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Re: polyrhythm/euclidean sequencer with probability

Post by kay_k » Thu May 28, 2020 4:20 am

EC has a 25% random setting. AFAIK no euclidean sequencer has a step programmable probability (.. like Malekko or Elektron sequencers have)

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dbeats
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Re: polyrhythm/euclidean sequencer with probability

Post by dbeats » Thu May 28, 2020 5:03 am

Trigger Riot comes into my mind, not euclidean, but everything else in large amounts.

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Zerstorte Zelle
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Re: polyrhythm/euclidean sequencer with probability

Post by Zerstorte Zelle » Thu May 28, 2020 5:37 am

Steppy does per step probability

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Re: polyrhythm/euclidean sequencer with probability

Post by Mabuse » Thu May 28, 2020 8:19 am

Estes wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 3:10 am
I do like to cheat wonky beats with an unstable clock, like two square lfos into an or module (maths can do that). Use that clock to feed conveniant sequencers or even a zularic repetitor. No menudiving but needs some time to find a sweet spot.
i also do this kind of stuff with my compare2 and lfos.
but iam looking for something that can be stored and doesnt looks like big spaghetti chaos when its patched.
dbeats wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 3:25 am
Maybe a Euclidean Circles plus 1-2 Branches?
that combo looks nice and simple. not to much overload as in the bigger seq modules.
of course its a trade off, since it will lack the dynamic step delay stuff...
wich could be done externally with a gate delay.
dbeats wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 5:03 am
Trigger Riot comes into my mind, not euclidean, but everything else in large amounts.
thanks for the suggestion. looks pretty deep and with no menue diving ... will check that out.
Zerstorte Zelle wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 5:37 am
Steppy does per step probability
yes. just like the trigger riot.
i would be interested in delay probability. seems not to be that common in euro...
kay_k wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 4:20 am
EC has a 25% random setting. AFAIK no euclidean sequencer has a step programmable probability (.. like Malekko or Elektron sequencers have)
thanks for pointing out.
yes, i also know it from the elektron world but i have to say that malleko implemetation of per step delay (microtiming)
is even nicer because the delay time changes randomly within a defined range. with small delaytimes this leads to a humanized and constantly slightly changing sequence.

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Re: polyrhythm/euclidean sequencer with probability

Post by hewed » Thu May 28, 2020 11:26 am

2 channels of a vpme euclidean circles through a ladik skipper has served me nicely for this, particularly for interesting high hat rhythms.
More GAS budget than talent

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VZvision
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Re: polyrhythm/euclidean sequencer with probability

Post by VZvision » Thu May 28, 2020 12:16 pm

Mabuse wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 2:27 am
iam looking for a polyrhythm sequencer with probability. something with not so much menue diving - more hands on.
mostly doing experimental/electroacoustic music.
Since you’re looking for something to do experimental you may want to look at something like the Trigger Riot for the rhythm. Very hands on, and with the speed control combined with cycle start and end saved per preset, you can approach polyrhythmic structures pretty quick.

Also would give you the added benefit of optionally dislocating the pitch from the rhythm which is always fun.

However, if you’re looking for very deliberate programming, then probably not the best option.

Also, I’ve found that polymeter is quite attainable with many euro sequencer options, but successsuful implementation of polyrhythm can be a bit more elusive. Two routes are sending completely different clock tempos to separate sequences and only syncing transport and reset control OR going with one of the more full-featured, variable-length-per-stage sequencer options.
Last edited by VZvision on Thu May 28, 2020 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: polyrhythm/euclidean sequencer with probability

Post by starthief » Thu May 28, 2020 12:21 pm

In a different direction there's Monome Teletype. This is the kind of thing I often use it for.

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Re: polyrhythm/euclidean sequencer with probability

Post by Mabuse » Thu May 28, 2020 4:42 pm

VZvision wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 12:16 pm
Since you’re looking for something to do experimental you may want to look at something like the Trigger Riot for the rhythm. Very hands on, and with the speed control combined with cycle start and end saved per preset, you can approach polyrhythmic structures pretty quick.
trigger riot seems to be very interesting because its not a standard step sequencer approach but if needed it can do 4 to the floor...
because it has no cv-ins (beside reset and clock) i wonder how much variation/instability of the sequence is possible on its own.
it seems its a machine that need manual adjustment to unlock its full potential, is that right?
VZvision wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 12:16 pm
Also would give you the added benefit of optionally dislocating the pitch from the rhythm which is always fun.
you mean because of there is no cv out on the tr?
could you please elaborate on that?

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Re: polyrhythm/euclidean sequencer with probability

Post by cierny_vlk » Thu May 28, 2020 5:36 pm

Seems like you might be able to accomplish this with the Moffenzeef Mito and PNW. Mito is super hands-on and fun, but you would need to set up Pam's first. I find the PNW menus to be pretty shallow and quick.

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Re: polyrhythm/euclidean sequencer with probability

Post by VZvision » Thu May 28, 2020 10:13 pm

Mabuse wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 4:42 pm
because it has no cv-ins (beside reset and clock) i wonder how much variation/instability of the sequence is possible on its own.
it seems its a machine that need manual adjustment to unlock its full potential, is that right?
The TR definitely benefits from getting in and altering timings and clocks on the fly (in combination or not with the mutes). This is especially true of settings like the pulsewidth parameter which can act as quick masks on other dividers in a row as well as slow build ups in probability of clocks getting triggered.

The lack of CV in is indeed a bummer. Having said that, the reset-in, combined with the preset looping can let you trigger presets externally from other parts of a system (albeit sequentially). With the ability for arrangements between presets to be wildly different or subtly the same, many variations via CV are attainable. The external triggering is something I’ve only recently started making use of and it’s a tonne of fun for sure :tu: You do have to spend some time deliberately programming the presets though and/or jamming and saving as you go and then start cycling presets.

Have gone down the rabbit hole of building a couple rows of TR with other modules to get direct CV over parameters and it’s a lot of stuff going on to be honest which is pretty hard to keep track of even at two rows modulating PW and P(x).
Mabuse wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 4:42 pm
VZvision wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 12:16 pm
Also would give you the added benefit of optionally dislocating the pitch from the rhythm which is always fun.
you mean because of there is no cv out on the tr?
could you please elaborate on that?
Correct. So you would mult the row(s) of TR that are related to a melodic voice(s), send 1 copy to an ADSR for the associated VCA and/or filter and the other copy to clock a CV sequencer that is driving the 1V/oct of the associated voice. When pitch and gate come from the same sequencer, a given pitch is typically associated with a specific note in the rhythm. With the above, different parts of the rhythm can end up with different pitches because the gate stream and CV stream will not always align, creating an interplay between the two rather than just consistent loops.

I like the suggestion above of Pam’s too. Could get the feel of TR with some OR logic downstream of Pam’s clocks too.

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Re: polyrhythm/euclidean sequencer with probability

Post by Estes » Fri May 29, 2020 1:35 am

I just wanted to come back to the initial thoughts on the Varigate 8+ A friend helped me program this beat with the Varigate 8+ It's based on the sega rhythm from La Reunion and in order to program it properly as you can imagine delay probability is really helpful. If your goal is to recreate certain rhythms you not only would need probability delay but also accents to do a good job. But only if you want to do it in a Scientific approach. The programming on the Varigate is really painful and it was indeed buggy.



The friend that helped me with the beat, made also a sequencer for Max for Live with offsets probability delays/steps/accent.
But if you want to make a beat that really shines, it helps if you know where to put accents. It's not only about the delays. If Max for Live is a thing check also this one that came out lately, he did an own theory of rhythms (but again Maxforlive).
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=230896

It helped me a lot to learn a bit of music theory while exploring rhythms cause lots of grooves work only with 12 steps and I realized that i can achieve easy much more interesting beats in 12 steps. Euclidean and Polyrhythm are just terms that has been used a lot but I usually don't need them for those grooves I try to recreate. Since I don't know exactly where your experimentation is going I don't know how to help you better, there are some more approaches worth to mention.

For example you could use a sample or a drummer/percussionist with polyrhythms and use the transients to create triggers like the Peak & Hold Module from CG products.

I ended not going for a modular approach when it comes to program rhythms, cause therefore maxforlive is providing me more comfortable solutions.
But I'm curious where this post will end, maybe I missed somehting.

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Re: polyrhythm/euclidean sequencer with probability

Post by kay_k » Fri May 29, 2020 3:29 am

Also .. I am trying not to push my unfinished stuff too much but it is of interest in this topic so ..
I am working on a 4 channel "gate manipulator" module. See here:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=224436

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Re: polyrhythm/euclidean sequencer with probability

Post by AbundantChoice » Fri May 29, 2020 7:34 am

Yeah, I use a Euclidean Circles through a Twiigs (which is like 2 Branches smushed together) sometimes, but yeah youd need to also use the CV ins to change the probability per step. Having it delay the gate rather than just mute it though...hmm.

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Re: polyrhythm/euclidean sequencer with probability

Post by johannes » Fri May 29, 2020 8:36 am

double
Last edited by johannes on Fri May 29, 2020 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: polyrhythm/euclidean sequencer with probability

Post by johannes » Fri May 29, 2020 9:10 am

double double
Last edited by johannes on Fri May 29, 2020 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: polyrhythm/euclidean sequencer with probability

Post by johannes » Fri May 29, 2020 9:11 am

VZvision wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 10:13 pm
The TR definitely benefits from getting in and altering timings and clocks on the fly (in combination or not with the mutes). This is especially true of settings like the pulsewidth parameter which can act as quick masks on other dividers in a row as well as slow build ups in probability of clocks getting triggered.

The lack of CV in is indeed a bummer. Having said that, the reset-in, combined with the preset looping can let you trigger presets externally from other parts of a system (albeit sequentially). With the ability for arrangements between presets to be wildly different or subtly the same, many variations via CV are attainable. The external triggering is something I’ve only recently started making use of and it’s a tonne of fun for sure :tu: You do have to spend some time deliberately programming the presets though and/or jamming and saving as you go and then start cycling presets.

Have gone down the rabbit hole of building a couple rows of TR with other modules to get direct CV over parameters and it’s a lot of stuff going on to be honest which is pretty hard to keep track of even at two rows modulating PW and P(x).

looping presets looks great. so basically you can chain them or you could switch between 2 (or more) presets.
i guess it switches when loopend is reached in combination with gate received in the reset-in?

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Re: polyrhythm/euclidean sequencer with probability

Post by mritenburg » Fri May 29, 2020 9:16 am

Qubit Pulsar for 4x Euclidean Sequencers + West Oakland Skipmin for 4 channels of probabilistic pulse randomization.
Disappointment with any module is usually a failure of imagination.

Ummm, I guess you would call it techno.


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Re: polyrhythm/euclidean sequencer with probability

Post by continuum » Fri May 29, 2020 12:22 pm

johannes wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 9:11 am

looping presets looks great. so basically you can chain them or you could switch between 2 (or more) presets.
i guess it switches when loopend is reached in combination with gate received in the reset-in?
When the Riot is running from the internal clock the Preset switches at the Cycle End (CYCE). External clocking uses the Reset to move to the next Preset.

Setting up a Preset Loop is pretty straightforward:

- Hold B2 (Loop) until the display shows 'Off' then turn the Tempo encoder to On
- Hold B3 (Loop Start) and then press the Bank and Preset for the start
- Hold B4 (Loop End) and then the Bank and Preset to set the end point of the loop

The start can be after the end so the loop runs in reverse.

I could probably add some loop playback options like palindrome, random and drunk if I get some time for it.
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Re: polyrhythm/euclidean sequencer with probability

Post by mdoudoroff » Fri May 29, 2020 12:41 pm

Note that if cannot find a Skipmin, the Noise Engineering Integra Funkitus does pretty much the same and more.

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Re: polyrhythm/euclidean sequencer with probability

Post by johannes » Fri May 29, 2020 2:45 pm

continuum wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 12:22 pm
When the Riot is running from the internal clock the Preset switches at the Cycle End (CYCE). External clocking uses the Reset to move to the next Preset.
so with external triggering the TR will switch to the next preset immediately? also when the sequence didnt reached the end yet?
continuum wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 12:22 pm
I could probably add some loop playback options like palindrome, random and drunk if I get some time for it.
please do that. it would be a great addition... :tu:

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Re: polyrhythm/euclidean sequencer with probability

Post by Mabuse » Fri May 29, 2020 4:40 pm

@ VZvision: thanks for explaining and going into detail. its much clearer now.
i will definitelly try this thing and see if an external delay with a random distribution is needed at all ... btw. according to tiptop a new panel version of the trigger riot is comming very soon.

@ Estes: thanks for your report on the vg8+ and recommendations specially the accent.
i already know malcoms work from the kyma world. he joined the great RHYTHMIC COMPUTATION LAB. worth to check it out:


as a former kyma, supercollider and max enthusiast/user iam relatively new to eurorack. the good thing is that i now spend more time on making music than on programming/debugging. so iam more than happy to stumble across modules like the trigger riot, that directly offers a carefully developed functionblock with a specific parameterset. from what i saw on yt iam very curious about its sequencing approach because you dont set individual notes by hands on a step by step basis, but you rather change the parameters of the function that defines the sequence. so far i worked explorative so i think that a good match.

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Re: polyrhythm/euclidean sequencer with probability

Post by Mabuse » Fri May 29, 2020 4:59 pm

btw. anyone here who compared different euclidean rhythm modules (in terms of interface, flexibility, cv-possibilities and parameters)?
are they all more or less the same or do you have specific preferences due to special features that other modules dont have?
Last edited by Mabuse on Fri May 29, 2020 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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