>>>SUMMINGFACILITY 6 channels, 2 bus stereo mixer

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cackland
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Post by cackland » Mon May 06, 2019 11:35 am

I understand both sides of the coin here. Everyone has different needs, requirements and taste for what they would want in a mixer.

That said, there are many things I would change / improve on this module. Everyone is different, and one module can't 'always' be for everyone.

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Post by Dunk_91 » Mon May 06, 2019 1:27 pm

cackland wrote:I understand both sides of the coin here. Everyone has different needs, requirements and taste for what they would want in a mixer.

That said, there are many things I would change / improve on this module. Everyone is different, and one module can't 'always' be for everyone.
I think that having multiple options on the market and different system usages is a really good thing.
It would be quite boring if we all had the same workflow. :mrgreen:

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exper
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Post by exper » Mon May 06, 2019 1:45 pm

It's a shame. Really great looking module and layout. I could even get past the lack of CV, but the mono fx return is the deal breaker for me. I suppose one could get around it by using and external mixer, but that seems a pity to add more cost/hp.
Current system:
http://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/5549
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Dunk_91
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Post by Dunk_91 » Mon May 06, 2019 2:06 pm

exper wrote:It's a shame. Really great looking module and layout. I could even get past the lack of CV, but the mono fx return is the deal breaker for me. I suppose one could get around it by using and external mixer, but that seems a pity to add more cost/hp.
I don't know if I get it right but you don't need an external device to have a stereo Return.
Our module has 2 Return inputs, you can use them as single stereo Return or as dual mono.

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cackland
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Post by cackland » Mon May 06, 2019 2:13 pm

Dunk_91 wrote:
exper wrote:It's a shame. Really great looking module and layout. I could even get past the lack of CV, but the mono fx return is the deal breaker for me. I suppose one could get around it by using and external mixer, but that seems a pity to add more cost/hp.
I don't know if I get it right but you don't need an external device to have a stereo Return.
Our module has 2 Return inputs, you can use them as single stereo Return or as dual mono.
I think, from my point of view, what it comes down to.. is that with such a large module, to only have 2 mono returns, or a single stereo return is a bit of a let down. I would have prioritized the # of sends / returns along with the control pots, rather than have the large VU meters.

What if, I use ONE of the sends to a stereo unit, then I would need both mono returns. The other send is useless, as there is no return inputs -> unless I have to use another module (mult or another mixer) to receive the returns. This defeats the whole purpose of having an all in one solution.

Each send, needs to have the option of a stereo return. Otherwise you are limiting the user to only using mono outboard processors / effects. Unless you wanted to mono in a stereo return, which again, defeats the purpose.

Something to think about. Just my opinion.

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exper
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Post by exper » Mon May 06, 2019 2:29 pm

Dunk_91 wrote:
exper wrote:It's a shame. Really great looking module and layout. I could even get past the lack of CV, but the mono fx return is the deal breaker for me. I suppose one could get around it by using and external mixer, but that seems a pity to add more cost/hp.
I don't know if I get it right but you don't need an external device to have a stereo Return.
Our module has 2 Return inputs, you can use them as single stereo Return or as dual mono.
What I mean is that it only has a single stereo return (by panning the single returns left and right). Most effects modules have stereo out. So having 2 sends would have been great along with 2 individual stereo returns, so that the user could use two stereo effects simultaneously without any external summing.
Current system:
http://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/5549
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viewtopic.php?f=74&t=229687

Dunk_91
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Post by Dunk_91 » Mon May 06, 2019 2:30 pm

cackland wrote:
Dunk_91 wrote:
exper wrote:It's a shame. Really great looking module and layout. I could even get past the lack of CV, but the mono fx return is the deal breaker for me. I suppose one could get around it by using and external mixer, but that seems a pity to add more cost/hp.
I don't know if I get it right but you don't need an external device to have a stereo Return.
Our module has 2 Return inputs, you can use them as single stereo Return or as dual mono.
I think, from my point of view, what it comes down to.. is that with such a large module, only have 2 mono returns, or a single stereo return is a bit of a let down. I would have prioritized the # of sends / returns along with the control pots, rather than have the large VU meters.
A nice monitoring view is an important feature to not be overlooked IMHO.
Mixing is so much easier with a good view on what's going on inside the unit.

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Post by Dunk_91 » Mon May 06, 2019 3:02 pm

cackland wrote:
Dunk_91 wrote:
exper wrote:It's a shame. Really great looking module and layout. I could even get past the lack of CV, but the mono fx return is the deal breaker for me. I suppose one could get around it by using and external mixer, but that seems a pity to add more cost/hp.
I don't know if I get it right but you don't need an external device to have a stereo Return.
Our module has 2 Return inputs, you can use them as single stereo Return or as dual mono.
What if, I use ONE of the sends to a stereo unit, then I would need both mono returns. The other send is useless, as there is no return inputs -> unless I have to use another module (mult or another mixer) to receive the returns. This defeats the whole purpose of having an all in one solution.

Each send, needs to have the option of a stereo return. Otherwise you are limiting the user to only using mono outboard processors / effects. Unless you wanted to mono in a stereo return, which again, defeats the purpose.

Something to think about. Just my opinion.
Usually we interface with fx that have left-right inputs and left-right outputs on separate connectors, we based our design considering this most common routing scenario.
Also, stereo Returns would prevent the stage to receive balanced signals.
Since one of the unit's main attributes is the ability to act as gateway to non-modular world, this feature has priority.

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Post by cackland » Mon May 06, 2019 3:22 pm

Dunk_91 wrote:
cackland wrote:
Dunk_91 wrote:
exper wrote:It's a shame. Really great looking module and layout. I could even get past the lack of CV, but the mono fx return is the deal breaker for me. I suppose one could get around it by using and external mixer, but that seems a pity to add more cost/hp.
I don't know if I get it right but you don't need an external device to have a stereo Return.
Our module has 2 Return inputs, you can use them as single stereo Return or as dual mono.
I think, from my point of view, what it comes down to.. is that with such a large module, only have 2 mono returns, or a single stereo return is a bit of a let down. I would have prioritized the # of sends / returns along with the control pots, rather than have the large VU meters.
A nice monitoring view is an important feature to not be overlooked IMHO.
Mixing is so much easier with a good view on what's going on inside the unit.
Based on my experience and being a recording engineer, you don't mix with your eyes, you mix with your ears.

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cackland
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Post by cackland » Mon May 06, 2019 3:26 pm

Dunk_91 wrote:
cackland wrote:
Dunk_91 wrote:
exper wrote:It's a shame. Really great looking module and layout. I could even get past the lack of CV, but the mono fx return is the deal breaker for me. I suppose one could get around it by using and external mixer, but that seems a pity to add more cost/hp.
I don't know if I get it right but you don't need an external device to have a stereo Return.
Our module has 2 Return inputs, you can use them as single stereo Return or as dual mono.
What if, I use ONE of the sends to a stereo unit, then I would need both mono returns. The other send is useless, as there is no return inputs -> unless I have to use another module (mult or another mixer) to receive the returns. This defeats the whole purpose of having an all in one solution.

Each send, needs to have the option of a stereo return. Otherwise you are limiting the user to only using mono outboard processors / effects. Unless you wanted to mono in a stereo return, which again, defeats the purpose.

Something to think about. Just my opinion.
Usually we interface with fx that have left-right inputs and left-right outputs on separate connectors, we based our design considering this most common routing scenario.
Also, stereo Returns would prevent the stage to receive balanced signals.
Since one of the unit's main attributes is the ability to act as gateway to non-modular world, this feature has priority.
As I alluded to previously, every module can not be the so called 'Swiss army knife' for everyone. Each will have features that users will like, and dislike. You cannot please everybody.

Praise be to building something suitable to the best needs for the designer. I completely understand this, especially with my own modules.

I would of done things differently, but that's my own prerogative. Cudos to the completion of your module, I hope it sells well.

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sir stony
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Post by sir stony » Mon May 06, 2019 3:42 pm

Your signal diagram was obvious, and your chosen features make some sense with that. All of this, however, does not make sense to be stuffed inside a synth rack, though. It'd make a much better box that sits right next to the modular and runs on higher voltage rails. The I/Os for external gear should then of course provide proper audio connectors instead of flimsy mini jacks, or have them both available in parallel. The main output has of course to be balanced (which I didn't see in your description), and you should add a headphone output with selectable pfl. All in all, it'd be a quality mixer with inputs that will happily work with modular synth levels. But then again, any half-serious studio mixer will work with these at a fraction of the price you are likely to call. It just doesn't make much sense to squeeze this concept into eurorack where voltage is limited, cv interaction is near mandatory and rack space valuable as gold... and in the end you might put a lot of work and money into making this available in great quality, but sell much less than you could with a better concept. That's what I'm trying to say.

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Post by Dunk_91 » Mon May 06, 2019 4:46 pm

sir stony wrote:Your signal diagram was obvious, and your chosen features make some sense with that. All of this, however, does not make sense to be stuffed inside a synth rack, though. It'd make a much better box that sits right next to the modular and runs on higher voltage rails. The I/Os for external gear should then of course provide proper audio connectors instead of flimsy mini jacks, or have them both available in parallel. The main output has of course to be balanced (which I didn't see in your description), and you should add a headphone output with selectable pfl. All in all, it'd be a quality mixer with inputs that will happily work with modular synth levels. But then again, any half-serious studio mixer will work with these at a fraction of the price you are likely to call. It just doesn't make much sense to squeeze this concept into eurorack where voltage is limited, cv interaction is near mandatory and rack space valuable as gold... and in the end you might put a lot of work and money into making this available in great quality, but sell much less than you could with a better concept. That's what I'm trying to say.
1) Outputs are balanced (please, if you ignore what ground cancelling balancing is give it a look, every new thing learned is a good one)

2) you can put it in a box outside your system and power it with higher supply rails, as stated in the first post. No mods are required.

3) headphone output with selectable input monitoring is present in the expander

4) what is the price we are likely to call?

5) we take every feedback with the most positive attitude and use them to improve our design, however please understand that your opinion isn't the only to take in consideration, and before start to design the module we have have asked many studio user what they will need/would have in a device like this, and the module itself is (for us) the best way to make them happy. As you already stated this device is not for you, not a big deal fortunately for us.

Please don't take it on the personal side, we really hope that our next modules will match your preferences!

:tu:

Funch

Post by Funch » Mon May 06, 2019 5:44 pm

Fwiw, you can always return to an open channel, however don't send that channel to ,itself

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Audio Gear Obsession - SUMMINGFACILITY

Post by Audio Gear Obsession » Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:55 am

Hi guys, we hope you are enjoing some studiotime!

Our bridge to facilitate summing and routing of eurorack and non-eurorack devices is ready.
We have assembled a limited 1st run of 5 units. First supporters will be rewarded :spin:

Check main feautures & photos below.

For infos contact us here > info@audiogearobsession.com

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AudioGearObsession.Ago

Modular Grid: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/other-unk ... gfacility-

Old Muffwiggler topic: https://muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic ... 6&t=216620

>

MAIN FEATURES

System:
– 6 fully balanced input channels w/ gain, volume, panorama, 2 aux send, independent mute for master & aux buses
– 2 aux send outputs w/ ground cancelling circuitry
– 2 fully balanced aux return Input w/ gain, panorama & independent master bus muting
– Stereo master output w/ ground cancelling circuitry & 22 Vpp of headroom available

Engineering:
– Modern Op Amps
– 0.5% thin film resistors
– Wima & Panasonic caps
– 4 layer PCB (designed for best EMI/EMC)
– Reverse powering protection

Physical:
– 38 HP
– Skiff friendly (32 mm behind the panel)
– Eurorack format

Extra:
– Expansion module coming later 2020
– Available w/ balanced cables (jack-mini TRS to jack TRS, XLR, Bantam/TT)
– Available w/ balanced/telescopic pad cables

>



>

Image

>

Image

>

Audio Gear Obsession
Last edited by Audio Gear Obsession on Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:30 pm, edited 6 times in total.

stickman
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Re: >>>SUMMINGFACILITY 6 channels, 2 bus stereo mixer

Post by stickman » Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:08 pm

I get the flow diagram and mix like that myself (with a desktop multitrack mixer working nicely at euro level, and balanced io for bus).

But.. wouldn't a typical summing use case be to record (AD/DA) prior to summing, and as such does a euro form factor make it harder to do that than other summing units?

I'd certainly want to run stems/groups through such a fine unit :)

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Audio Gear Obsession
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Re: >>>SUMMINGFACILITY 6 channels, 2 bus stereo mixer

Post by Audio Gear Obsession » Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:39 am

stickman wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:08 pm
I get the flow diagram and mix like that myself (with a desktop multitrack mixer working nicely at euro level, and balanced io for bus).

But.. wouldn't a typical summing use case be to record (AD/DA) prior to summing, and as such does a euro form factor make it harder to do that than other summing units?

I'd certainly want to run stems/groups through such a fine unit :)
Hi stickman! One of us runs it as summing point for stems in his studio. :mrgreen:

He uses 6 channels to sum 3 stereo stems and 2 aux to route signal to the modular (or to use returns as an input for another stereo stem).

Also the expander, in program later this years, adds direct outputs to channels (& other features).

Direct outputs take signal after gain stage, it can provide from -10 dB to 12 dB to accommodate voltage levels from pro equipment to modular systems and viceversa.

For example if you have 8 channels on your interface, you can plug >
channel 1+2 to record master bus || channel 3+4 to record aux send || 5++ to record direct output.

Btw this is the new thread of SUMMINGFACILITY take a look! > viewtopic.php?f=16&t=225332

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cackland
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Re: >>>SUMMINGFACILITY 6 channels, 2 bus stereo mixer

Post by cackland » Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:19 am

Why not just use this thread? No need to create 2 threads

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Audio Gear Obsession
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Re: >>>SUMMINGFACILITY 6 channels, 2 bus stereo mixer

Post by Audio Gear Obsession » Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:12 pm

cackland wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:19 am
Why not just use this thread? No need to create 2 threads
This thread is not from our official account so we made a new one.

We'll keep on monitoring this thread too. :tu:

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Multi Grooves
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Re: >>>SUMMINGFACILITY 6 channels, 2 bus stereo mixer

Post by Multi Grooves » Sun May 10, 2020 9:30 pm

I keep coming back to this...It's like the love child of Arrel's short lived summing mixer and GRP's 4 channel option:

Image

Image
...but Cynthia, my Daddy never had a heath kit..

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Re: >>>SUMMINGFACILITY 6 channels, 2 bus stereo mixer

Post by Audio Gear Obsession » Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:04 am

Hey guys!

The mighty DivKid has cooked a review for our baby - check it out!



:hyper:

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half.cto
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Re: >>>SUMMINGFACILITY 6 channels, 2 bus stereo mixer

Post by half.cto » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:40 am

I’dont know if I need it, but it looks amazing :woah: . Props for design.

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revtor
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Re: >>>SUMMINGFACILITY 6 channels, 2 bus stereo mixer

Post by revtor » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:15 am

Nice work on bringing YOUR vision to reality!! Mixers seem to be one of those modules where everyone has a strong opinion and you will never please everyone. (And you don’t have to!!)

Perhaps a 3 or 4 stereo input to master stereo out would be a cool “expander”.

Good luck
-steve
Fellow North Jersey Synthaholic

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Audio Gear Obsession
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Re: >>>SUMMINGFACILITY 6 channels, 2 bus stereo mixer

Post by Audio Gear Obsession » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:14 pm

half.cto wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:40 am
I’dont know if I need it, but it looks amazing :woah: . Props for design.
Thank you!

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Re: >>>SUMMINGFACILITY 6 channels, 2 bus stereo mixer

Post by Audio Gear Obsession » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:22 pm

revtor wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:15 am
Nice work on bringing YOUR vision to reality!! Mixers seem to be one of those modules where everyone has a strong opinion and you will never please everyone. (And you don’t have to!!)

Perhaps a 3 or 4 stereo input to master stereo out would be a cool “expander”.

Good luck
-steve
Much thanks man!

Really appreciated your tip on the expander.

We haven't planned to build it, but at the same time we haven't completely ruled out this option.

At the moment our rough idea is to add through it direct outs for all input channels and probably an additional stereo return.

Anyway we'll keep this thread if there's some news on this side.

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Re: >>>SUMMINGFACILITY 6 channels, 2 bus stereo mixer

Post by damase » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:53 pm

the mixers look great quality, i would definitely consider it as my system grew, direct outs would be essential

my weird takeaway from the video though is “attenuator cables”?
i guess these are balanced cables but if there was a patch cable version that attenuates a signal by a certain amount i would almost certainly purchase a handful of those

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