Heavier-gauge ribbons for power distribution?

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bgribble
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Heavier-gauge ribbons for power distribution?

Post by bgribble » Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:36 am

I am using 4ms Row Power in a 6u x 110hp diy case. I am using the 4ms "bus sticks" to get power to the modules; it connects to the Row Power with a normal Euro power ribbon.

I would really like to connect the Row Power to the bus sticks using a Euro format power cable built with heavier-gauge discrete wires instead of a ribbon cable. Quite a bit of current flows through it, and my case is pretty wide so one of the two bus sticks has an extra-long feeder cable. It's low urgency since I'm not currently (see what I did there) having any problems but it's a concern.

I can't find anything like that prebuilt online. Does anybody know of a source of them?

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Rex Coil 7
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Post by Rex Coil 7 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:16 pm

Hinton Instruments are heavier yet. Probably the heaviest available.

I made the one on the left, the Hinton is one the right.

Image


These are all Hinton. I had them made for use with bus bars, I special ordered them without any ends on the bus bar end of the cables so I can cut them to length and add eyelets. Graham makes them to any length, and accepts special orders. 20ga, 19 strand wire is used. These are all eighteen inches long, but he'll make them any length you want. The sockets inside of the black connectors are the best in the industry as well.

Best module power cables available, easily so.

LINK = http://www.hinton-instruments.co.uk/pap ... cables.htm

Image
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Post by bgribble » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:24 pm

Thanks, both the Modular Addict and the Hinton ones look like they would be an improvement. At the current being drawn by my full case, the difference between a .06 ohm/ft (28 awg) and .01 ohm/ft (modular addict 22 awg) could make a measurable improvement in the difference between supply voltages in different parts of the case.

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Post by Rex Coil 7 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:34 pm

bgribble wrote:Thanks, both the Modular Addict and the Hinton ones look like they would be an improvement. At the current being drawn by my full case, the difference between a .06 ohm/ft (28 awg) and .01 ohm/ft (modular addict 22 awg) could make a measurable improvement in the difference between supply voltages in different parts of the case.
Go with bus bars. Copper traces on bus cards (or "sticks") will never compete with a set of three 0.250" x 1.00" bus bars. Use bus bars and good cables and you're good to go no matter how you configure your case, or no matter where you place your most power hungry modules. Bus bar systems are the apex predator (so to speak) of power distribution systems.

Hinton makes bus bar sets, or you can make your own.


I did.

Image
5U MODULAR NORMALIZING PROJECT (for your entertainment) viewtopic.php?t=78836&highlight=
.. given the choice between conformity and self respect, I choose the latter.
.. dominion - noun: control or the exercise of control . power . possessed and controlled domain . sovereignty . having dominion over the world . supreme authority . absolute ownership . power . authority . jurisdiction . control . command ... power ....... power .......... power.

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joem
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Post by joem » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:50 pm

I thought Rabid Elephant had some heavy duty eurorack cables too, but I can't find them on their site anymore.

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Post by Mungo » Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:10 pm

joem wrote:I thought Rabid Elephant had some heavy duty eurorack cables too, but I can't find them on their site anymore.
They started and then didn't complete the introduction of a different connector for their power. You can see the adaptor cable pictured in product listings:
https://www.schneidersladen.de/en/rabid ... knobs.html
bgribble wrote:I am using 4ms Row Power in a 6u x 110hp diy case. I am using the 4ms "bus sticks" to get power to the modules; it connects to the Row Power with a normal Euro power ribbon.

I would really like to connect the Row Power to the bus sticks using a Euro format power cable built with heavier-gauge discrete wires instead of a ribbon cable. Quite a bit of current flows through it, and my case is pretty wide so one of the two bus sticks has an extra-long feeder cable. It's low urgency since I'm not currently (see what I did there) having any problems but it's a concern.

I can't find anything like that prebuilt online. Does anybody know of a source of them?
bgribble wrote:Thanks, both the Modular Addict and the Hinton ones look like they would be an improvement. At the current being drawn by my full case, the difference between a .06 ohm/ft (28 awg) and .01 ohm/ft (modular addict 22 awg) could make a measurable improvement in the difference between supply voltages in different parts of the case.
How long are the cables from the power supply to the bus boards? The bus sticks have a relatively high resistance themselves so reducing the resistance of the cable is likely to make only a very small difference, connecting the two bus board directly together with a single heavier cable would make more improvement than running two of them back to the power supply. But again it would be a small improvement. Start with the basics of keep all the cables as short as possible (move the power supply and bus sticks around if needed) and connected to the middle of the bus boards, not the ends.

The 4ms row power, bus sticks, and ribbon cables to join them together are all contributing similar amounts to the final result. They are a collective system where nothing is over specified and everything works together at their capacity. Replacing any one part will make very little difference, you need to replace 2 of the 3, or all of them for significant improvements.

Bus bars and special power cables only make sense when you have a power supply to match them.

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Post by Graham Hinton » Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:43 pm

bgribble wrote:Thanks, both the Modular Addict and the Hinton ones look like they would be an improvement.
Not if you are going to use one module cable to supply a full buscard. The best improvement you can make is to get rid of a power supply with 16-pin headers for outputs. I don't recommend what you are thinking of doing at all.
At the current being drawn by my full case, the difference between a .06 ohm/ft (28 awg) and .01 ohm/ft (modular addict 22 awg) could make a measurable improvement in the difference between supply voltages in different parts of the case.
What is your total current draw?
10milliohms/ft is alright for module cable wires if you have multiple ones, but to supply a group of modules you should be looking at more like 10 times less and then only for less than a foot. Longer and you need lower, it is the total resistance that is the significant factor. The issue is not so much the supply voltages as the fact that the module currents are being shared in a common cable which causes coupling.

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Post by Rex Coil 7 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:49 pm

Mungo wrote:Bus bars and special power cables only make sense when you have a power supply to match them.
Hey, you catch on pretty quick! And when you have a well thought out power supply along with bus bars and power cables to match, then you have a complete power system that actually makes sense.

Those aren't "special" power cables. They are power cables that make sense. Ribbon cable was never designed to be "power cable", it's for ones and zeros. Power cables are power cables, and are designed as such. There is nothing "special" about them.

:roll:
Last edited by Rex Coil 7 on Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
5U MODULAR NORMALIZING PROJECT (for your entertainment) viewtopic.php?t=78836&highlight=
.. given the choice between conformity and self respect, I choose the latter.
.. dominion - noun: control or the exercise of control . power . possessed and controlled domain . sovereignty . having dominion over the world . supreme authority . absolute ownership . power . authority . jurisdiction . control . command ... power ....... power .......... power.

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Post by UltraViolet » Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:47 pm

Rex Coil 7 wrote:
bgribble wrote:Thanks, both the Modular Addict and the Hinton ones look like they would be an improvement. At the current being drawn by my full case, the difference between a .06 ohm/ft (28 awg) and .01 ohm/ft (modular addict 22 awg) could make a measurable improvement in the difference between supply voltages in different parts of the case.
Go with bus bars. Copper traces on bus cards (or "sticks") will never compete with a set of three 0.250" x 1.00" bus bars. Use bus bars and good cables and you're good to go no matter how you configure your case, or no matter where you place your most power hungry modules. Bus bar systems are the apex predator (so to speak) of power distribution systems.

Hinton makes bus bar sets, or you can make your own.


I did.

Image
That is really a first class power system. :woah: Does it make a difference for the modules?

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Post by Mungo » Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:02 pm

Rex Coil 7 wrote:
Mungo wrote:Bus bars and special power cables only make sense when you have a power supply to match them.
Hey, you catch on pretty quick! And when you have a well thought out power supply along with bus bars and power cables to match, then you have a complete power system that actually makes sense.

Those aren't "special" power cables. They are power cables that make sense. Ribbon cable was never designed to be "power cable", it's for ones and zeros. Power cables are power cables, and are designed as such. There is nothing "special" about them.

:roll:
Your pithy one liners really are tiring, exclaiming bus bars to be the solution and not mentioning their reliance on the power supply is plainly misleading.

Those examples of cables are special as eurorack modules are shipped with 16pin sockets to plug into the busboards, the de facto standard. As noted above not all modules use that as their input connector on their side but the general assumption is that a module will be plugging into a 16 pin power header.

If ribbon cables weren't designed for power, then why are the parts manufacturers specifying the cables and connectors for amps of current? Ribbon cables with IDC connectors are designed for low cost with ease of assembly and manufacture, they can be applied appropriately for all sorts of applications including carrying power. If you want to get really off topic, ribbon cables are not great at carrying data either in comparison to modern impedance controlled connectors and cabling. Just as they aren't brilliant at carrying power compared to some other much larger and more expensive alternative.

For eurorack modular synthesiser systems ribbon cables are entirely adequate and appropriate, the difference in performance from switching modules to use heavier cables is very minor. I've measured it to verify that the models and theoretical concepts hold true. There are places such as connecting between the power supply and the busboard where it can make more of a difference, but even then its still minor compared to other ways to fix the same problem. This is the very specific question the OP asked, which you seemed to miss and haven't added anything constructive.

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Post by Rex Coil 7 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:53 pm

UltraViolet wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
bgribble wrote:Thanks, both the Modular Addict and the Hinton ones look like they would be an improvement. At the current being drawn by my full case, the difference between a .06 ohm/ft (28 awg) and .01 ohm/ft (modular addict 22 awg) could make a measurable improvement in the difference between supply voltages in different parts of the case.
Go with bus bars. Copper traces on bus cards (or "sticks") will never compete with a set of three 0.250" x 1.00" bus bars. Use bus bars and good cables and you're good to go no matter how you configure your case, or no matter where you place your most power hungry modules. Bus bar systems are the apex predator (so to speak) of power distribution systems.

Hinton makes bus bar sets, or you can make your own.


I did.

Image
That is really a first class power system. :woah: Does it make a difference for the modules?
Thank you! Send me a PM if you wish to discuss it, I'll be happy to hear from you.

:nod:

(I'm not monitoring this thread)

:tu:
5U MODULAR NORMALIZING PROJECT (for your entertainment) viewtopic.php?t=78836&highlight=
.. given the choice between conformity and self respect, I choose the latter.
.. dominion - noun: control or the exercise of control . power . possessed and controlled domain . sovereignty . having dominion over the world . supreme authority . absolute ownership . power . authority . jurisdiction . control . command ... power ....... power .......... power.

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