Starthief's Eurorack adventure, 2016-???

Cwejman, Livewire, TipTop Audio, Doepfer etc... Get your euro on!

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Re: Starthief's Eurorack adventure, 2016-???

Post by ATW » Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:58 pm

Hey Startheif, curious about your experience of the AI matrix mixer after a bit more time with it. If you were to get a matrix mixer today, would it still be one you’d consider? You’ve used the Doepfer one as well, and right?

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Re: Starthief's Eurorack adventure, 2016-???

Post by starthief » Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:26 pm

ATW wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:58 pm
Hey Startheif, curious about your experience of the AI matrix mixer after a bit more time with it. If you were to get a matrix mixer today, would it still be one you’d consider? You’ve used the Doepfer one as well, and right?
Yeah, I had the Doepfer one. Pros and cons as I see it:

Doepfer A-138m: full size knobs, but they're a bit close together for comfort. 4x4, if you need it. The jack and knob layout is really intuitive. Has bipolar mode which can be nice for feedback loops sometimes if you need to invert the phase. The first input can be normalled to a DC offset with a jumper.

AI008: half the size. Better knob spacing. 4 in, 3 out (plus the mix out which is kind of useless IMHO). The jack layout is less immediately obvious, and the knob labeling throws me for some reason -- "A3" is output A, input 3, when I want it to be input A, output 3. You'd think it would have stopped confusing me after the first few times, but nope :) Probably because I got used to the Doepfer.

For my purposes -- occasional feedback patching -- I didn't really need 4x4 and wanted the smaller size. On those occasions where I need to invert, I can use a Shades channel.

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Re: Starthief's Eurorack adventure, 2016-???

Post by ATW » Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:37 pm

starthief wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:26 pm
For my purposes -- occasional feedback patching -- I didn't really need 4x4 and wanted the smaller size. On those occasions where I need to invert, I can use a Shades channel.
Thanks for this, helpful to hear abt your experiences there. While I appreciate the layout of the Doepfer matrix in particular—the signal flow is a no brainer, but I can’t really justify that HP currently—especially with Shades on hand for inversion, as well.

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Re: Starthief's Eurorack adventure, 2016-???

Post by Cpaf » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:31 am

Hi starthief, if I remember correctly you swapped out the Filter 8 for the Angle Grinder, right? How is that working out? The Grinder seems like a really fun one, could you se Filter 8 and Grinder beside each other or would there be to much overlap?

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Re: Starthief's Eurorack adventure, 2016-???

Post by starthief » Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:49 am

Cpaf wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:31 am
Hi starthief, if I remember correctly you swapped out the Filter 8 for the Angle Grinder, right? How is that working out? The Grinder seems like a really fun one, could you se Filter 8 and Grinder beside each other or would there be to much overlap?
The BB-N and Phase outputs on Filter 8 are something I miss a little, but I'm having more fun with Angle Grinder, like its character more, and have no regrets.

I think it'd be fine to use both of them. They're somewhat similar but sometimes it's good to use two filters in series, especially if you overdrive the first one (or use AG's waveshaping). Or ping them in parallel, etc. Quadrature LFOs into AG's Grind CV inputs could be fun too maybe.

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Re: Starthief's Eurorack adventure, 2016-???

Post by starthief » Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:53 am

Welp... last night I rearranged the main case, boxed up the E352 and Hertz Donut... and left a space either for EnOsc or to put the E352 back in.

And a few minutes ago I went ahead and ordered the EnOsc :D I think it'll fit my style perfectly.

I moved the Mult+PassThru into the case instead of the DIY "sidecar" thing -- might as well since I've got spare HP, and that way a 24" cable will still reach it from anywhere in the case. Thanks to the odd size of the Zorlon Cannon, and the case being a little wider than exactly 114HP, I was able to leave a gap for the cables from the back.

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Re: Starthief's Eurorack adventure, 2016-???

Post by Cpaf » Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:12 am

starthief wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:49 am
Cpaf wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:31 am
Hi starthief, if I remember correctly you swapped out the Filter 8 for the Angle Grinder, right? How is that working out? The Grinder seems like a really fun one, could you se Filter 8 and Grinder beside each other or would there be to much overlap?
The BB-N and Phase outputs on Filter 8 are something I miss a little, but I'm having more fun with Angle Grinder, like its character more, and have no regrets.

I think it'd be fine to use both of them. They're somewhat similar but sometimes it's good to use two filters in series, especially if you overdrive the first one (or use AG's waveshaping). Or ping them in parallel, etc. Quadrature LFOs into AG's Grind CV inputs could be fun too maybe.
Thx for your comment! I am wondering if the Angle Grinder is something for me in the future, and by your description I really should check it out some more as it might pair up nicely with my Filter 8! Awesome to follow your Journey in modular, will keep reading!

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Re: Starthief's Eurorack adventure, 2016-???

Post by Besfar » Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:05 am

Hey this is a nice thread, maybe you can recommend something for me.

Im on the lookout for a wild digital oscillator that can do lots of fm/alien fx kind of sounds, to replace my shapeshifter that i sold, while i wait for shapeshifter v2.

I had some oscs already.
- Hertz dobut mk3, was a nice chainsaw osc, but i dont like button pushing to change octaves etc.
- Piston honda mk3, same, plus it made me realize i like industrialmusicelectonics modules standalone, but they dont fit my music, which is more alien organic style.
- shapeshifter as mentioned, with all the things already listed, plus i find wavetables without some sort og visual representation a bit fumbling in the dark.
- furthrrrr generator, was my best sounding analog osc, but i didnt enjoy the turning of the pitch wheels.

I have:
- Plaits+tides, a great Combo soundwise. I like that rubber. Though i found the fm on shapeshifter went further.
- dpo, but i find it goes out of tune very fast, and gets harsh aswell.
- loquelic iteritas, is super nice, but a bit lo fi. Great in the lower regions, sampled through morphagene.

So a great osc would be shapeshifter type thing, that has more sweet spots, and less digital/harsh spots.

Looking at the polygogo, which seems nice. Also, visually very inspiring.

Also looking at warps for the tides + plaits combo. Really like the sound and feel of mutable :)

So, long post, but hope you can share experience. Anything ive missed for insta-fx + pretty hifi sound? :)

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Re: Starthief's Eurorack adventure, 2016-???

Post by starthief » Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:16 am

Hmm, not really sure from that description. These thoughts will be a bit scattered, I'm still trying to wake up and haven't found a way to organize them :D

Anything that generates sound through the interaction of two oscillators is going to have sweet spots in the middle of a vast swamp of harshness, just from the frequency ratios. More so when you combine that with other waveshaping techniques or cross-modulation. It just comes with the territory.

I think it can help to have a good scope. I've gotten a lot of use out of the O'Tool+, for watching waveforms (but even more so for understanding modulation sources).

That said, E352 could be what you're looking for. I think nobody's really beaten it where it comes to wavetables (except the E370 :D). There's some definitely some menu fiddling, but I think it's friendlier to use than the Harvestman mk3 stuff.

Orgone Accumulator has always interested me. Now that I understand Shapeshifter, I realize that OA is kind of like a simpler form of that -- some basic wavetables (with crossfading between selected positions) and a sine-only modulation oscillator that does AM or FM, plus various effects. I've never actually used it so I don't know how it compares overall.

I have high hopes for 4ms Ensemble Oscillator. From demos, it's capable of getting harsh when the cross-FM is used in certain ways, but overall it seems really chill and harmonious :) Xaoc Odessa might also be a good option for you?

For deeper FM depths, I suspect Rubicon is probably the #1 way to go. In my experience Akemie's Castle goes quite a bit deeper than Hertz Donut, Shapeshifter or almost anything else, but it is absolutely not clean and pristine :) (E352's FM depth can go to ridiculous extremes if you don't rein it in, but it's not as clear as Castle or Rubicon.)

Mangrove is a really nice analog oscillator with good character. A little bit like Tides, or a Maths channel driven by an audio rate pulse, but it has a particularly lovely sound.

Cursus Iteritas has a character that reminds me of a couple of Plaits models but with a little bit of a digital growl to it, but I didn't find myself loving it for very long honestly.

Rings is worth exploring. With its audio input it's so much more than the plucky guitar and mallet stuff so many people use it for.

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Re: Starthief's Eurorack adventure, 2016-???

Post by Besfar » Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:38 am

Thanks for a great response :)

I think i could have saved you a bit of typing by making a better description, sorry.

Ill look into the e252, and also the mangrove. And the rubicon :D

Thinking more about it, a thing i really miss and need first and foremost is a precision adder/voltage source that does not only do octaves, but also increments what do you call them, ratios, like the hertz d, or the digitone.
For more precise fm duties, as not to sweep whole range and mess up the interaction between channels.

Maybe its the only thing i need :)

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Re: Starthief's Eurorack adventure, 2016-???

Post by autopoiesis » Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:54 am

Besfar, I can strongly recommend Tides (2018 is best) + FM Aid + any analog oscillator with a sawtooth output. you can get precise frequency ratios with the Tides that are locked to the "carrier" oscillator's phase, with FM Aid allowing the Tides to phase modulate the carrier.

if you have a "carrier" that does TZFM (Rubicon might be overkill, by the way, if you're not interested in all of its separate waveform outputs) and tracks really well, you can try skipping the FM Aid (though i think PM is more rewarding when using shapes other than sine as the modulator) and using Tides 2018's secondary outputs that are shifted in intervals. I've tweaked my Tides's firmware so that those secondary outputs are always ratios that are useful for FM/PM, regardless of whether the oscillator is in PLL mode. if you end up getting one, I'd be happy to share the firmware with you.

based on the descriptors you keep coming back to, I'd also recommend an Odessa paired with a sine oscillator to very lightly apply exponential FM to it when you want to get beyond its typical sounds.

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Re: Starthief's Eurorack adventure, 2016-???

Post by starthief » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:07 am

Besfar wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:38 am
Thinking more about it, a thing i really miss and need first and foremost is a precision adder/voltage source that does not only do octaves, but also increments what do you call them, ratios, like the hertz d, or the digitone.
For more precise fm duties, as not to sweep whole range and mess up the interaction between channels.
Hertz Donut mk2 doesn't have that, so when I switched from mk3 back to mk2, I wrote a scene for Teletype to do it. It'd be a useful standalone module though!

It could offer several different sets -- octaves (like a normal precision adder), perfect fifths and octaves, strict 1:X and X:1 integer ratios, Y:X and X:Y integer ratios, the Yamaha DX100 ratio set, etc.

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Re: Starthief's Eurorack adventure, 2016-???

Post by starthief » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:18 am

Hmm, another suggestion might be Starling Via SYNC3. It's three oscillators that follow the frequency of an external oscillator, with selectable ratios (you choose a bank of ratios, and then have knobs for each oscillator). One oscillator has its own output, and the other two are mixed and can be AM'd from external sources. They can also be phase modulated -- so you could use it as the carrier and an external oscillator as the modulator, and it stays locked to a nice clean ratio.

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Re: Starthief's Eurorack adventure, 2016-???

Post by desolationjones » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:24 am

Monome crow is perfect for those little "I wish I could make a CV utility that does X" if you don't want to spend the HP/$ for a Teletype. It requires some programming knowledge though and it's a bit of a faff to need the PC for flashing/debugging.

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Re: Starthief's Eurorack adventure, 2016-???

Post by starthief » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:34 am

Good suggestion. I like Teletype for the live coding aspect and coming up with algorithmic patterns on the fly, but yeah, Crow would definitely be a good choice for utilities like that.

(I've actually been using Teletype a bit less recently -- since the pandemic has me working from home, I feel like I need my full-size mechanical keyboard for software development, so the wireless keyboard that can switch between my PC and Teletype usually lives off to the side. I kind of feel bad about not testing the new beta features yet since I was one of the people advocating for binary parsing...)

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Re: Starthief's Eurorack adventure, 2016-???

Post by Besfar » Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:04 am

Thanks a bunch guys, awesome suggestions.

Fm aid seems pretty rad, i never much looked into it, but listening now. Pretty darn deep fm/pm.

I Actually have tides 2018, its my favorite osc :D never did think about the ratio outputs to use for fm of other oscs. Im must be retarded.
Id really like your custom firmware if you make it👌

Also you keep recommending odessa, so id better check that out, but fm aid is less expensive and can use with what i already have.
Though, ill check odessa out as we speak. Xaoc make great stuff.

Everything that involves coding is a big no no.
I try to make tracks, not sidetracks he he, and i use modular to make music faster (and more fun/sound betyr:)

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Re: Starthief's Eurorack adventure, 2016-???

Post by SavageMessiah » Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:14 am

Besfar wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:05 am
while i wait for shapeshifter v2.
Don't hold your breath. They've already said there's no concrete plans for one. jjclark mentioned some ideas he had at one point but none of them were really shapeshifter v2, more like a next-gen FPGA based crazy oscillator thing.

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Re: Starthief's Eurorack adventure, 2016-???

Post by starthief » Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:30 am

FM Aid is great and I highly recommend it :tu:

And yeah, the "Shapeshifter 2" stuff sounded pretty far off, and like whatever else Cylonix does as a result of the R&D might not be anything like Shapeshifter or any other modules we've ever seen... if it happens. It doesn't sound like they have much interest in just updating the hardware and adding features to the same formula.

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Re: Starthief's Eurorack adventure, 2016-???

Post by autopoiesis » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:51 pm

Besfar wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:04 am
Thanks a bunch guys, awesome suggestions.

Fm aid seems pretty rad, i never much looked into it, but listening now. Pretty darn deep fm/pm.

I Actually have tides 2018, its my favorite osc :D never did think about the ratio outputs to use for fm of other oscs. Im must be retarded.
Id really like your custom firmware if you make it👌

Also you keep recommending odessa, so id better check that out, but fm aid is less expensive and can use with what i already have.
Though, ill check odessa out as we speak. Xaoc make great stuff.

Everything that involves coding is a big no no.
I try to make tracks, not sidetracks he he, and i use modular to make music faster (and more fun/sound betyr:)
cool, I'll pm you soon :)

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Re: Starthief's Eurorack adventure, 2016-???

Post by Besfar » Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:52 am

SavageMessiah wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:14 am
Besfar wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:05 am
while i wait for shapeshifter v2.
Don't hold your breath. They've already said there's no concrete plans for one. jjclark mentioned some ideas he had at one point but none of them were really shapeshifter v2, more like a next-gen FPGA based crazy oscillator thing.
Id like a fpga based crazy oscillator thing very much :)

Also, ive checked odeassa, and thats really not my cup of tea. Sounds very, i dont know. Additive :P

On another note, ive teamed up tides with the stereo dipole filter in self resonating mode, and its the best sounding fm interaction ive had yet. Really really great.
Which got me into looking at more ssf modules. The zero point oscillator seems cool aswell.

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Re: Starthief's Eurorack adventure, 2016-???

Post by Besfar » Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:55 am

starthief wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:30 am
FM Aid is great and I highly recommend it :tu:

And yeah, the "Shapeshifter 2" stuff sounded pretty far off, and like whatever else Cylonix does as a result of the R&D might not be anything like Shapeshifter or any other modules we've ever seen... if it happens. It doesn't sound like they have much interest in just updating the hardware and adding features to the same formula.
Cylonix/jjclark did say in the shapeshifter2 thread that they are working on something similar, which is _not_ coming really soon. So at least seems they are working on something along those lines :)
I think it was in the ss2 thread, pretty recently.

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Re: Starthief's Eurorack adventure, 2016-???

Post by autopoiesis » Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:23 am

Besfar wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:52 am
SavageMessiah wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:14 am
Besfar wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:05 am
while i wait for shapeshifter v2.
Don't hold your breath. They've already said there's no concrete plans for one. jjclark mentioned some ideas he had at one point but none of them were really shapeshifter v2, more like a next-gen FPGA based crazy oscillator thing.
Id like a fpga based crazy oscillator thing very much :)

Also, ive checked odeassa, and thats really not my cup of tea. Sounds very, i dont know. Additive :P

On another note, ive teamed up tides with the stereo dipole filter in self resonating mode, and its the best sounding fm interaction ive had yet. Really really great.
Which got me into looking at more ssf modules. The zero point oscillator seems cool aswell.
I hear you on Odessa but I've come to love mine. what is lacking right now are demos of how a light touch of fm completely transforms Odessa. I'll throw something up on Soundcloud soon as well to show what I mean

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Re: Starthief's Eurorack adventure, 2016-???

Post by starthief » Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:33 am

autopoiesis wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:23 am
what is lacking right now are demos of how a light touch of fm completely transforms Odessa. I'll throw something up on Soundcloud soon as well to show what I mean
Yeah, I have seen a few people mention that but the rest of us haven't heard it yet :mrgreen:

I know that when there are just a few additive oscillators, both FM and wavefolding or distortion can work really well. I've done that with ER-301 and Bitwig, as well as Soniclab Fundamental. Really curious about how it works with several hundred sines...

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Re: Starthief's Eurorack adventure, 2016-???

Post by Besfar » Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:57 pm

autopoiesis wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:23 am
I hear you on Odessa but I've come to love mine. what is lacking right now are demos of how a light touch of fm completely transforms Odessa. I'll throw something up on Soundcloud soon as well to show what I mean
Go for it :)
Everything thats fm'ed is interesting.
Also am.

And, the e352 seems great.
For those of you who own it, does it have a wide pitch range?
Also can you turn off the quantizing in the fm mode?
Yes i can read the manual :)

Too many options these days.
Trying to scale down my setup, not too easy 🥴

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Re: Starthief's Eurorack adventure, 2016-???

Post by starthief » Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:08 pm

Besfar wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:57 pm
And, the e352 seems great.
For those of you who own it, does it have a wide pitch range?
Also can you turn off the quantizing in the fm mode?
I can't check the exact numbers since mine's in a box now, but it ranges from several seconds per cycle to... something like 9kHz if I remember right without any CV, just from the coarse pitch knob. So, yeah :)

(Also, you can build wavetables that have more than one cycle per "wave" if you want really high-frequency stuff. Or use the modulator output in 2op FM mode with a high ratio.)

The 2op FM mode doesn't let you turn off quantization of the ratios, but it has a pretty good set of useful ratios. But you can always use Morph+Phase mode for phase modulation, and/or the FM input for exponential or linear TZFM, from any external oscillator.

Also Detune mode lets you offset the frequencies of the two outputs, and you can use FM Aid on them :)

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