stereo mixer module comparison

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CorpusCallosum
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Post by CorpusCallosum » Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:44 am

Ah, I misunderstood and thought you were saying the opposite - that an external mixer wasn't fundamentally suitable for use with eurorack. I've been using a combination of eurorack utility mixers and submixers plus an external mixing board, and I've found that to be more workable than the compromises required for the pure eurorack solutions like the WMD or Befaco, ultimately (both of which I have and which are great for what they are), so I agree with you.

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Post by xthrasherx » Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:01 am

mdoudoroff wrote:
CorpusCallosum wrote:mdoudoroff I'm wondering why you say an outboard mixer is fundamentally incompatible with eurorack. Is it just the lack of cv control, or is it because of something else?
All I mean is that there’s no workable way to cram the functionality of a full channel strip into 3U.
Exactly this. I use the WMD Performance mixer and absolutely love it, but what I wish it had would be damn near impossible to have in Eurorack.

Looking at the typical analog mixer, you have your signal in, insert fx (not always though), aux send controls, parametric eq (3-4 bands with adjustable q, sometimes more sometimes less depending on era & budget), bus grouping, etc. Even the “channel strip” experience is a bit of a compromise in rack units.

Ultimately I wish there was something like an outboard mixer with an eye towards performance and modular compatibility. Offer cv inputs over things like panning and levels (cv automation). Kind of like a mashup of the WMD mixer and the Playdifferently Model 1. And the only real benefit would be in a live type of context since recording individual tracks will almost always be better :roll:
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Post by naxuu » Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:42 pm

Fantastic resource, thanks!

Quick update: Hyrlo mk2 can have 0-6 mono inputs, not just 0-3 (toggled via switch on the back).

Recently picked one up secondhand, and it hits most of what I want in an affordable AC audio mixer: 4hp, 0-6 mono or 0-3 stereo, chainable without patching, <$100 new, looks pretty :)

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mdoudoroff
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Post by mdoudoroff » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:25 pm

naxuu wrote:Quick update: Hyrlo mk2 can have 0-6 mono inputs, not just 0-3 (toggled via switch on the back).
Fixed!

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Shledge
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Post by Shledge » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:16 pm

Befaco's StMix is really good as an end-of-chain stereo mixer. 5 channels, 4 of which have attenuators. Can also accept mono signals.

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Post by WisdomWriter » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:50 pm

I actually just got my first designated stereo mixer. I was using just a VCA to my AI, but wanted to start getting more creative with panning and such. I got a MX-4ms. a lot of these on the list I haven't seen much of. ill have to take a look.

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Post by mdoudoroff » Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:16 am

Shledge wrote:Befaco's StMix is really good as an end-of-chain stereo mixer. 5 channels, 4 of which have attenuators. Can also accept mono signals.
Cool. Somehow this slipped by me. Added.

Looks like the layout must be rather cramped once it’s patched.

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Shledge
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Post by Shledge » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:20 am

Not really. There is plenty of room between the jacks and knobs.

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Post by chuckleone » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:51 am

I'm currently using a Make Noise Rosie as my main mixer/output but don't use a lot of the features and want to free up some space in my skiff. I'm leaning towards the Knob Farm Hyrlo. I know this this mixer be used as either stereo or mono but does anyone know if there are switches on the back to configure it so that the inputs used as mono get routed to both L and R outputs? I would ideally like to use some of the channels in mono, but not have them hard panned L or R.

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mdoudoroff
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Post by mdoudoroff » Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:01 am

I just updated the comparison, adding a new column for individual channel outs. Individual outs are mainly of interest to those doing multitracking with their modular, but they can certainly be used creatively for other purposes.

If I have it right, as of this writing, only two systems offer the ability to choose between pre-fader and post-fader: the ADDAC Stereo Summing Mixer module set and the Frap Tools CGM set. On both, you can choose between pre-fader and post-fader on a channel-by-channel basis using a switch.

If I understand right, the Befaco HEXA set—specifically the HEXPANDER module—provides post-EQ/post-fader outs only. No pre-fader option.

If I understand right, the XAOC Praga, (discontinued) ProModular MIIIX, and WMD Performance Mixer only offer pre-fader outs. (The WMD Performance Mixer only supplies individual outs via a DB25 expander.)

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Post by damase » Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:38 am

promodular miiiix channel outs are post fader/vca, you can use the mute button to take them out of the A/B outs though and then use the pot/vca for the channel out... so theyre post vca but not post mute i guess you could say

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mdoudoroff
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Post by mdoudoroff » Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:46 am

damase wrote:promodular miiiix channel outs are post fader/vca, you can use the mute button to take them out of the A/B outs though and then use the pot/vca for the channel out... so theyre post vca but not post mute i guess you could say
Thanks for the clarification. I adjusted the table to say “post-fader”.

As far as I know, all the individual outs on these mixers are post-vca. Actually, the WMD may not be… it’s post-gain, but the channel VCAs there may be fader VCAs. Hmmph… more research to do.

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Post by dysonant » Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:25 am

xthrasherx wrote:
mdoudoroff wrote:
CorpusCallosum wrote:mdoudoroff I'm wondering why you say an outboard mixer is fundamentally incompatible with eurorack. Is it just the lack of cv control, or is it because of something else?
All I mean is that there’s no workable way to cram the functionality of a full channel strip into 3U.
Exactly this. I use the WMD Performance mixer and absolutely love it, but what I wish it had would be damn near impossible to have in Eurorack.

Looking at the typical analog mixer, you have your signal in, insert fx (not always though), aux send controls, parametric eq (3-4 bands with adjustable q, sometimes more sometimes less depending on era & budget), bus grouping, etc. Even the “channel strip” experience is a bit of a compromise in rack units.

Ultimately I wish there was something like an outboard mixer with an eye towards performance and modular compatibility. Offer cv inputs over things like panning and levels (cv automation). Kind of like a mashup of the WMD mixer and the Playdifferently Model 1. And the only real benefit would be in a live type of context since recording individual tracks will almost always be better :roll:
I have dreamt of a small outboard performance mixer with a bridge module companion. This way one could plug their outputs into the bridge module and do a one cable connection to the mixer. Performance mixers like this are needed.

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Post by xaoc_tech » Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:38 am

The individual outputs on XAOC Praga are post-fader

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mdoudoroff
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Post by mdoudoroff » Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:44 am

xthrasherx wrote:
Exactly this. I use the WMD Performance mixer and absolutely love it, but what I wish it had would be damn near impossible to have in Eurorack.

Looking at the typical analog mixer, you have your signal in, insert fx (not always though), aux send controls, parametric eq (3-4 bands with adjustable q, sometimes more sometimes less depending on era & budget), bus grouping, etc. Even the “channel strip” experience is a bit of a compromise in rack units.

Ultimately I wish there was something like an outboard mixer with an eye towards performance and modular compatibility. Offer cv inputs over things like panning and levels (cv automation). Kind of like a mashup of the WMD mixer and the Playdifferently Model 1. And the only real benefit would be in a live type of context since recording individual tracks will almost always be better :roll:
I’d think that’s gonna be a very spendy hardware mixer, being a niche product with all the hardware requirements of a mixer PLUS a bunch of VCAs and possibly some controls related to them. Per channel. (There is an exotic mixing console out there from Zaehl that has some sort of CV support.)

It occurred to me that an enterprising interface manufacturer could easily build CV support into their remote software. For example, if you had an ES-6 passing CV from your modular to your computer through the ADAT port on your interface, there’s no reason that the remote software (the virtual mixing board interface) couldn’t be configured to listen to those channels and apply their fluctuations to parameters. You can already do something like this in some DAWs, such as Bitwig. Either way, that’s not a physical interface, though.
I have dreamt of a small outboard performance mixer with a bridge module companion. This way one could plug their outputs into the bridge module and do a one cable connection to the mixer. Performance mixers like this are needed.
WMD Performance Mixer + DB25 module ---> any mixer you like? (Admittedly, you’d probably need at least a medium-sized mixer, and I suppose that’s two cables, not one.)

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Post by mdoudoroff » Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:47 am

xaoc_tech wrote:The individual outputs on XAOC Praga are post-fader
I have corrected the comparison. Thanks!

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Post by dysonant » Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:37 pm

mdoudoroff wrote:
xthrasherx wrote:
Exactly this. I use the WMD Performance mixer and absolutely love it, but what I wish it had would be damn near impossible to have in Eurorack.

Looking at the typical analog mixer, you have your signal in, insert fx (not always though), aux send controls, parametric eq (3-4 bands with adjustable q, sometimes more sometimes less depending on era & budget), bus grouping, etc. Even the “channel strip” experience is a bit of a compromise in rack units.

Ultimately I wish there was something like an outboard mixer with an eye towards performance and modular compatibility. Offer cv inputs over things like panning and levels (cv automation). Kind of like a mashup of the WMD mixer and the Playdifferently Model 1. And the only real benefit would be in a live type of context since recording individual tracks will almost always be better :roll:
I’d think that’s gonna be a very spendy hardware mixer, being a niche product with all the hardware requirements of a mixer PLUS a bunch of VCAs and possibly some controls related to them. Per channel. (There is an exotic mixing console out there from Zaehl that has some sort of CV support.)

It occurred to me that an enterprising interface manufacturer could easily build CV support into their remote software. For example, if you had an ES-6 passing CV from your modular to your computer through the ADAT port on your interface, there’s no reason that the remote software (the virtual mixing board interface) couldn’t be configured to listen to those channels and apply their fluctuations to parameters. You can already do something like this in some DAWs, such as Bitwig. Either way, that’s not a physical interface, though.
I have dreamt of a small outboard performance mixer with a bridge module companion. This way one could plug their outputs into the bridge module and do a one cable connection to the mixer. Performance mixers like this are needed.
WMD Performance Mixer + DB25 module ---> any mixer you like? (Admittedly, you’d probably need at least a medium-sized mixer, and I suppose that’s two cables, not one.)
Oh, I have that mixer, but it seems redundant to have two mixers. Maybe I was not quite articulating what I mean. I desire a more full featured channel strip, that comes with and outboard mixer, and suggesting an easy method for connecting it to a modular. Plus the performance features you get from the PM Mutes.

I could use something like the nw2s::io to connect to an existing outboard mixer, but they are generally not compact and don't include performance oriented workflows. The Model DJ-1 gets close, but it is not exactly right either.

For now, I run my AUX outs from the PM to effects and then into a stereo mixer and then back into the Stereo MIX IN (I understand WMD had to make feature choices, but it is a shame that one cannot run AUX channels simultaneously.) For EQ I am looking at a few different things but currently trying a combo of Three Sisters and Happy Nerding Tri-Tone in front of the PM inputs. But this only works for 5-6 channels and is less precise than per channel EQ. I am happy with this setup but just imagining an easier more full featured solution. Like I said, just dreaming about it.

Also, I was really just agreeing with you and xthrasherx

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Post by dubonaire » Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:54 pm

dysonant wrote:I have dreamt of a small outboard performance mixer with a bridge module companion. This way one could plug their outputs into the bridge module and do a one cable connection to the mixer. Performance mixers like this are needed.
A not so cheap but excellent quality solution for this if 6 channels is enough would be to combine the SSL SiX and the nw2s::io which you could connect by one DB25.

You could also do this with a PlayDifferently Model 1 DJ mixer which would give you more performance control.

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mdoudoroff
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Post by mdoudoroff » Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:38 pm

Added the pretty nifty Happy Nerding 2xSAM

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mdoudoroff
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Post by mdoudoroff » Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:49 am

New Toppobrillio Stereomix 2! (I didn’t see that one coming!)

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/toppobril ... lack-panel

(also added to the comparison)

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Post by Skumrask » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:11 am

Great thread and great work Doudoroff!

I built a L-1 stereo mixer and was surprised to find that the pots are curved exponentially which leaves very little wiggle room in the louder ranges. I hear that the Happy Nerding Panmix is the same. Can anyone confirm that and comment on other Happy Nerding mixing modules? Comments on any and all mixing modules and their response curves are interesting since only a few manufacturers provide specifications. So far I've only found Praga with a log curve.

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Post by Tivat » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:21 am

Nice work mdoudoroff

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Post by MvK » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:23 pm

thanks a lot for this list.
One thing: the cwejman MX-4AS (the big one) will not go into production. That was confirmed by the designer via Facebook.

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mdoudoroff
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Post by mdoudoroff » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:24 pm

Thanks for the tip, MvK; I’ll yank it. I’m also going to yank Escalation Dominance, because there’s really no point for it to be there.

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Post by Skumrask » Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:01 am

Skumrask wrote:
I built a L-1 stereo mixer and was surprised to find that the pots are curved exponentially which leaves very little wiggle room in the louder ranges. I hear that the Happy Nerding Panmix is the same.
I'll answer with a reply I had via email from Igor from Happy Nerding:
"2xSAM, 3xStereo Mixer, 3xMIA, 6xMIX, PanMix, PanMix Jr, Isolator, OUT – all of them have expo response for the level.

3xVCA has linear response for the Level (Bias) knob, because it is linear VCA.

Best regards
Igor"

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