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+/-15V designs on +/-12V and vice-versa
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Music Tech DIY Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next [all]
Author +/-15V designs on +/-12V and vice-versa
appliancide
With the somewhat recent abundance of Serge and eurorack DIY projects, 12V systems are becoming as common as 15V systems. This thread aims to be a resource for going back and forth between the two common voltages. If a manufacturer has this information easily accessible, that will be noted here. Projects that are not documented for both voltage standards will be examined by members of the community. The results will be posted here and the resource will grow. This information will probably/hopefully be posted to the wiki as well.

Audio, CV and gate levels discussions are also welcomed, as are solutions to interfacing modules with different standards. Boost/buck methods for voltage conversion are probably relevant as well.

Let's respect the manufacturers and each other and make sure that we can all build whatever we want in whatever format we want. Om Om Om

______________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________

4ms:

Shuffling Clock Multiplier: works on +/-12-15v
Rotating Clock Divider: works on +/-12-15v
Noise Swash: works on +/-9-15v
Atoner: works on +/-12-15v

Aaron Lanterman's Buchla Easel Clones:

Bergfotron:

Projects are documented for +/-15v operation

Blacet:
+/-15V, but most designs will work on +/-12v with little or no modification

CGS - Ken Stone:
Most projects operate on +/-15v with notes for +/-12v in documentation

Tube VCA: Ken Stone: "I connected mine up to +/-12 volts today, without midification, though I do
have an adjustable plate currrent on my module. I was using line level
signals. It worked without issue.
One fellow who was using hotter signals was finding some distortion that
differed from when running on +/-15 volts.
Try reducing the filament current limiting resistors from 1k5 to 1k2, and
putting a 20k pot in series with the 8k2 plate resistor."

MegaOhm Audio:

Delta VCF: operates on +/-15v, but can run on +/-12v
"maybe change the current limiting resistor feeding the OTAs to 12k if you want to keep high end response" via gwaidan

Flight of Harmony:

Choices: operates on +/-9-15V
Plague Bearer: operates on +/-9-15V
V'Amp: operates on +/-9-15V
Sound of Shadows: operates on +/-12-15v

Fonitronik:

Attenuverting Mixer: Works on +/-12-15v
Thomas Henry Super Controller: Designed for 15V, According to Fonitronik, "maybe you won't have to change anything. most critical parts are referenced to the onboard 5V anyway. however, you could adjust R55 and R56 (schematic page 3, page 6 of documentation). lower their values to widen the range of the potentiometers if needed."

Thomas Henry X-4046: Works on +/-12-15V

Ian Fritz:
Projects are 12V, with notes in the build documentation for 15V.
______________
Thomas Henry:

VCO-1
http://www.birthofasynth.com/Thomas_Henry/Pages/VCO-1.html - also see "Making Music With The 3080 OTA" and "the VCO chip cook book"

Oscar S. aka Sound provided this excellent information:

"The basic idea is to look for current and voltage references offsets and amplitudes.

For example VCO-1:
R43 provides current reference. You change it with a simple Rule of Three, so if for 15V is 1.5M for 12V is 1.2M

Coarse and Fine controls will see reduced their span. Look that with +15V/-15V supply, Coarse control will span 30 octaves! So maybe in this case you don't need to change it. With +12/-12V supply you will have 24 octaves span.
However, if you desire, decrease or increase the span is achieved increasing or decreasing R28.

Fine control could be useful to change it. For +15/-15V I use R46=3M that gives me one octave of span. So if you want an octave of span with +12/-12V use R46=2.4M

This could be useful useful for all expo converters... like the one in the VCF1

.....
At this point I bread-boarded the VC1 core and its waveshapers and Sunday has gone !

.....

OK , so I measured triangle output and the amplitude was about 8 p-p , I achieved close to 10Vp-p with little offset with:
R22=24K
R13=3.9K
R30=110K

Then, for sine output I achieved 10V p-p with:
R18=14K
R19=14K

For pulse, was expected smaller output, since comparator goes from one rail to the other.
I achieved 10V p-p and 1KΩ of standard output impedance with
R12=2K
R7=2K

Finally we have R41. It will decide the pulse width span of the control potentiometer.
In my breadboard, I noticed that with R41=265K, Pulse goes from aprox. 5% to 95% . Other folks could prefer other configuration.

Let me some time to check the other modules. Any question will be welcome.

Oscar."

Thank you Oscar for the excellent post! Good information for converting VCOs in general.
______________

David M. Ingebretsen's Synthasystem PCBs:

All projects work on +/-12-15v (most projects come with a separate pcb for regulating the power to +12/-10v)

Jurgen Haible:

Magic Smoke Electronics:

TH-201/Mankato VCF: Designed for 15V. According to Tim Servo, no changes required to operate at 12V

TH-101/Sheboygan 566 VCO: Designed for 15V. ???

TH-102/El Cerrito 2206 VCO: ???

TH-301/Cucamonga VC-LFO: ???

Malekko Heavy Industry:
Eurorack modules designed for +/-12v
Some modules will run of +/15V:

AntiOscillator
Noisering
Borg
Boogie

Natural Rythym Music/Thomas White:

NRM-001 Resonant Lopass Gate: Runs on +/-12-15v

PAiA:

MOTM/Synthesis Technology:

Music From Outer Space:
Most projects are documented for +/-9-15V on MFOS site. If you find a module that is not documented for your desired voltage, please post here.

Oakley Sound Systems:

COTA VCF: works on +/-12-15v
Control Modules: work on +/-12-15v
4019 VCA: works on +/-12-15v
S/H and Slew: works on +/-12-15v
EFG issue 4: works on +/-12-15v
EFG issue 6: documented for +/-15v
Overdrive: works on +/-12-15v


SMS Audio Electronics:
SN76477 Voice: operates on +/-15v "for +/-12v, change R60 and R59 to 1.2M (instead 1.5M)
R28 to 37.6K or substitute it by 50K~100K trim-pot
R31 to 60K or substitute it by a 100K trim-pot
R52 to 180K"
(People on several old threads on e-m suggested that no changes may actually be necessary)

Toppobrillo:

Triple Wave Folder: works on +/-12-15v
Buchla 281: all versions work on +/-12-15v (make sure you use correct version of build documention if you have older boards)

YuSynth:

The following were designed for 15v,but work on 12v with no changes:
Simple VCA
Mixer
ADSR
Steiner VCF
Arp 4072
Minimoog VCF
Diode VCF
Dual Gate delay
Dual Pulse delay
Dual Gated Slew
Random Module (Noise + S/H)
Saw Animator
Boolean Logic
Random Gates
FFB
VC-LFO

Some can't and need important modifications :
VCO: ???
CV-STANDARD: "change R3=15K, and R5=130K, and R7=130K. "


______________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________

Discussion is welcome and encouraged. Got a question about a module you want to build? This is your thread. Built a module on a voltage other than it is documented for? Please share what you had to do, or if nothing needed to be changed.
frequencycentral
Very good idea.
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
I'm liking it. And, I'm happy to help out with the conversion duties, if you suggest some circuits. Typically, little if anything has to be changed when switching from one to the other. It's largely a matter of getting the panel controls in their proper ranges. Since I build my own stuff in 15V, but design for Intellijel in 12V, I tend to do all of my own designs in both formats.
diophantine
Sounds like a great idea! Could be nice to document in the wiki too, if it didn't feel like a ghost-town over there. :neutral:

Input and output ranges would also be great to have; can be frustrating putting something together than then realizing that it is meant for 0-10V CVs, but you're working with 0-5V CVs.

It may also be worthwhile to add non-DIY modules too, for those of us interested in doing repanel jobs to another format.
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
diophantine wrote:
Input and output ranges would also be great to have; can be frustrating putting something together than then realizing that it is meant for 0-10V CVs, but you're working with 0-5V CVs.

It might be worthwhile documenting how to change these from one to the other...?
Bricks
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
diophantine wrote:
Input and output ranges would also be great to have; can be frustrating putting something together than then realizing that it is meant for 0-10V CVs, but you're working with 0-5V CVs.

It might be worthwhile documenting how to change these from one to the other...?


I'd love to see this type of stuff!
clarke68
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
I'm liking it. And, I'm happy to help out with the conversion duties, if you suggest some circuits.

I would love it if you could figure out how to build the Jurgen Haible Living VCOs in 12v.

Thanks in advance!
CJ Miller
EFM and Ian Fritz are 12 Volt also. With various bits of CGS and Serge that makes my place mostly 12V. I tend to build stuff which was designed for 15 as intended for 15 V supply.

Might do my Best of CGS panels for 15V because of the VCOs. No pressing reason to change parts since I don't need them to run off of 12
BananaPlug
clarke68 wrote:
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
I'm liking it. And, I'm happy to help out with the conversion duties, if you suggest some circuits.

I would love it if you could figure out how to build the Jurgen Haible Living VCOs in 12v.

Thanks in advance!


It's really easy to put in two voltage regulators and just run the +/-12V module on +/-12V.
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
clarke68 wrote:
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
I'm liking it. And, I'm happy to help out with the conversion duties, if you suggest some circuits.

I would love it if you could figure out how to build the Jurgen Haible Living VCOs in 12v.

Thanks in advance!

Why not? Sounds like a plan! Just don't ask me to mess with the JH frequency shifter. That idea gives me the willies!
appliancide
It looks like there is some interest here. I will start formatting the first post with more information as I have time. My original intention was to just have a resource for switching back and forth between 15 and 12 V, but I do see the usefulness of also including voltage swings and gate levels as well as some tips to deal with differences in those levels.
qu.one
Most Blacet modules will work without any additional conversion - aside from a custom cable.
iopop
+1 on the suggestion to add this kind of stuff into the wiki!
Paradigm X
Great suggestion. This always confuses me (lots of things do TBH! lol )
bkbirge
appliancide wrote:

CGS:
Most projects are 15V, with notes for 12V on the individual project pages. If you find a module that is not documented for both, please post here.



CGS65 Tube VCA would be one I'd like to see definitively checked out for +/-12. I know some folks have done it but darned if I can find any docs/sites.

tIB
^ Im pretty sure ive seen a metalbox version of the tube VCA in euro... didnt mr white have one? Id assume that was running on 12v.
bkbirge
tIB wrote:
^ Im pretty sure ive seen a metalbox version of the tube VCA in euro... didnt mr white have one? Id assume that was running on 12v.


Yeah I know I've seen it, just don't have any info. About a year ago a very kind and knowledgeable wiggler talked me through some of what needs to be done but I've since lost the info. I wasn't ready to build then but I am now and of course can't remember who I talked to. This would be a good place to put the info if I/we can find it again I think.
sduck
This is a great idea for an excellent resource, wherever it ends up.

Just an observation - making statements like "most of the xxx modules run on either" doesn't really help much - can we be more specific about this stuff? Specifics! We need specifics!
appliancide
I just figured that would be the easiest way to list the ones that typically have the needed documentation. The ones that we need to be specific about are the ones that are not documented anywhere on the manufacturer website or the build documents.

Using CGS as an example...if Ken says "this module will work on 15V or 12V", then we know that nothing needs to be posted about this particular module. But if he says "this module should work on 12V, with some component changes", we could list what those changes would need to be.
neilbaldwin
Perfect timing as I've just bought a Yu Transistor Filter kit and it's designed for 15V where I want to build it as 12V.
Luka
nice work

if we start getting a lot of content to this i'll happily make it a sticky
appliancide
Excellent. I will add some content as I get it together. I am also curious what other people think of the suggestion to list all of the modules. My opinion is that most people have the build documentation in front of them while they build, so if the information is there.....but then a list annotated with "in docs" wouldn't be too crazy. It could give people a one stop "window shop" to mentally add to their already hopelessly oversized backlogs. Dead Banana

It is probably a good idea to link to schematics as opposed to posting them, at least in the case of people that are currently selling the projects and hosting the documentation on their sites. "Ask first" is probably the best policy to keep as many project sellers as possible involved.
Paradigm X
Wasnt sure if you wanted info adding in this thread or not?

I asked yves Yusynth about +/-12v for the Steiner filter, CA3096 version, which works without changes. Not got round to building yet tho ...
slowalan
Re CGS Tube VCA, works very well on 12v...see this thread https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39772&start=0&postda ys=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
appliancide
Paradigm X wrote:
Wasnt sure if you wanted info adding in this thread or not?

I asked yves Yusynth about +/-12v for the Steiner filter, CA3096 version, which works without changes. Not got round to building yet tho ...


Absolutely add information if you have it. I bumped a 12V thread over on e-m to ask Yves if I could post all of the information here.

I highly encourage PCBs sellers to contribute here as well. Spam your products and help the greater good at the same time!
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