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Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Modular Synth General Discussion Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29  Next [all]
Author Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?
cptnal
colb wrote:
This one's a bit more musical.

The core is two Doepfer oscs (osc1 = 110-2 and osc 2 = 110-1), Osc 2 is synced to Osc 1, then its output is inverted (with some offset) and sampled using an S&H triggered by osc 1. The resulting value is Quantised and used as the pitch CV for osc1. The pitch CV for osc 2 comes from a quantized sampled LFO (rampage).

The triggers for the sample and holds come from heavily divided down osc1 output.

So basically, a feedback system. There is some filtering, Envelopes, and a Disting delay for some added texture...

[s]https://soundcloud.com/colray/as-it-unfolds[/s]


Me likey lots. applause

I'm going to put this little system on my Things To Try. Patched me up a monster last night, which will probably keep me occupied for a few days. Right now I'm deep in matrix mixer territory. something wonderful
colb
cptnal wrote:

Me likey lots. applause


Thanks!

Here's a short generative track based on the same core patch. This time the tempo is fixed rather than divided down from the audio.

The basic concept is trying to fake a pitch detector and apply it to the output of one oscillator and use the result on the other. Because it doesn't really work, the results are somewhat chaotic and organic. Of course, after that, I usually start patching semi-random feedback lines and tweaking them adding quantization etc. until I like the sound...

My original idea was that if you have a ramp wave at a fixed frequency, and sync it at the reset of the waveform your are trying to track, and sample the amplitude of the fixed waveform at that time (of a fraction before), then the voltage will depend on the frequency of the signal you are tracking.

It does kind of work, but the outputs of the Doepfer oscillators I'm using are AC coupled, so the first time the tracked pitch changes, you get a reasonably appropriate sampled voltage, but then the output of the fixed frequency wave settles around DC, and the voltage normalises itself.
I've also tried with an LFO and a couple of different function generators, with equally variable and unpredictable results smile

[s]https://soundcloud.com/colray/the-weight-you-bear[/s]
colb
I've refined my pitch tracking idea a bit, and also worked out how to patch up a shift register using my Rampage and a sample and hold. Results worked quite well.
This is all still based on a feedback process through a quantizer and sample and holds. There's no sequencing or randomness.

Using the rampage to generate the trigger delays for the Shift register has a nice consequence - the delays can be lengthened allowing the shifting of the pitches through the register to be staggered.

[s]https://soundcloud.com/colray/an-orthogonal-dependency[/s]
tardishead
This is really amazing
Not many self generating patches I’ve heard have any emotional effect but this one definitely does.
Would you mind dumbing it right down for me and explain it in as universal terms as possible. I find eurorack a bit mystifying. I don’t know what Rampage is but I have plenty of VC Slope modules - is like that?
Is it a hard or soft sync at the base of your patch?
colb
tardishead wrote:
This is really amazing
Not many self generating patches I’ve heard have any emotional effect but this one definitely does.
Would you mind dumbing it right down for me and explain it in as universal terms as possible. I find eurorack a bit mystifying. I don’t know what Rampage is but I have plenty of VC Slope modules - is like that?
Is it a hard or soft sync at the base of your patch?


Thanks very much. I'll have a go at explaining what's going on.

There are a few components to the patch, but the main ones are a feedback loop that generates the pitch CV, and an Analog shift register.

The pitch part takes the output of an oscillator and processes it to generate a voltage that is in inverse proportion to the pitch. It's also imprecise, and also wraps, so if the input pitch gets too low, the output goes low again and vice versa...

This value is sampled and delayed, then used to generate the next pitch (or a pitch for a different oscillator...) either way it creates a contrary motion so each pitch is related to the last, but also has some chaotic behaviour at some settings due to the imprciseness of the process. It is also fed through a pitch quantiser so the pitches are from a specific scale or chord depending on the setting.

The shift register is a bit like a delay, but it delays the pitch CV rather than the actual audio. It has three outputs, and each one gets the value the previous one had on the last clock tick. The interesting bit is that each one is connected to a different oscillator with a different setting, so the same CV value won't necessarily generate the same note or timbre from the different oscillators. I also delayed each shuffle step of this delay to get a cascade effect - the new notes are sent to the oscillators in sequence rather than all at the same time on the clock tick.

So basically you get pitches that are related inversely to the one before due to the feedback system, and also each oscillator gets a pitch that another oscillator was just using (except the first one of course... and all the notes come from the same chord or scale... So there are multiple temporal and harmonic relationships between them. Our brains like those sorts of things.

The time is also broken up because I modulated the clock driving the whole thing using a division of its own output. This creates a very slow type of shuffle, so the meter of the track swings a bit in an interesting way.

The oscillators are mixed, and then put through the same filter set hot enough to create a little saturation. As they are sines and a triangle, they also create extra 'beat' frequencies. All these frequencies pushed through a saturating filter with some slow frequency modulation gives a really nice (IMO) texture and timbre. It swells and pulses, and sounds kind of natural... Sometimes the frequencies are very high, sometimes very low, and these interact in interesting ways when process through the filter as well.

I also grabbed another output of one of the filters to create another sound that plays fairly short, then echoes away - and as this is from one of the oscillators in the existing process, it's also part of the same harmonic system.

Finally, just playing with it and tweaking all the parameters until it starts to sound nice.
tardishead
colb wrote:
This one's a bit more musical.

The core is two Doepfer oscs (osc1 = 110-2 and osc 2 = 110-1), Osc 2 is synced to Osc 1, then its output is inverted (with some offset) and sampled using an S&H triggered by osc 1. The resulting value is Quantised and used as the pitch CV for osc1. The pitch CV for osc 2 comes from a quantized sampled LFO (rampage).

The triggers for the sample and holds come from heavily divided down osc1 output.



OK I think I'm starting to get it. Is it still based on the above earlier patch description?
So the VCO2 output is sampled with a S&H triggered by VCO1 heavily divided down correct? Also are you using the audio of VCO2 as well as VCO1 in the mix not just as a modifier?

And so with this latest patch how many VCOs are you using? And are they controlled by a shift register triggered by divided down VCO1 instead of a S&H. I'm familiar with shift registers but not sure where it comes in the patch.

Can you show us a basic patch diagram with the names of modules as to their function not their product name?
colb
tardishead wrote:
I don’t know what Rampage is but I have plenty of VC Slope modules - is like that?

Yes, it's a bit like a Maths.

I'm not using the slopes for the ASR though. The rampage has gate outputs for rise and fall, and a trigger output for End Of Cycle, so If you send a trigger to the trigger input and set the channel to the fastest speed, and rise and fall times to minimum, then each input trigger generates a delayed trigger (gate really) at the 'FALLING' output, and another after that at the 'EOC' output both with tiny almost imperceptible delays. So with one channel of Rampage, I can generate two staggered triggers. These can then be used to trigger sample and hold modules sequentially, so they pass their value to the next stage before their own value is updated...

Obviously it would be easier to just use an ASR module, but I don't have one of those smile

Here's the basic ASR patch using a sequencer into the ASR, driving three oscillators:
colb
tardishead wrote:

OK I think I'm starting to get it. Is it still based on the above earlier patch description?
So the VCO2 output is sampled with a S&H triggered by VCO1 heavily divided down correct? Also are you using the audio of VCO2 as well as VCO1 in the mix not just as a modifier?

And so with this latest patch how many VCOs are you using? And are they controlled by a shift register triggered by divided down VCO1 instead of a S&H. I'm familiar with shift registers but not sure where it comes in the patch.

Can you show us a basic patch diagram with the names of modules as to their function not their product name?


I'm not using the divided down VCO as the clock in this one. I'm using an LFO square wave output as a clock, with it's frequency modulated by a divided down version of it's own ouput. This is like a very slow shuffle - which is why there are pauses in the tune as chords are held.

I am using a VCO and the other half of the Rampage(dual ramp generator - using the ramp this time) as a bad pitch detector. I'm not using the audio out of this osc for audio - I found that the pitch that it works best at is too high. So I sent the same pitch CV into another Doepfer osc. and the other two outputs from the ASR into sine oscillators. So in total I'm using four VCOs, one as part of the pitch processing loop, and the other three as voices.

I'll probably notate this patch using modular grid at some point. If I get around to that, I'll post a pic.

It might be that the bad pitch detector part is unnecessary, and it will work just as well or better using a scaled inverted delayed sample of the input pitch directly. But I got here by the route I did. So I just stuck with it smile
tardishead
ok still confused about some of the particulars.
I'll wait to see a patch diagram if you can
thanks for sharing
jarnold90
Here's my current set-up: https://cdn.modulargrid.net/img/racks/modulargrid_816058.jpg

I've only been into modular for 8 months or so, and, against sound advice, I added modules quickly. I've ended up with some self-generating patches, primarily using the wobblebug and feedback generated by running L output of the DSP into the R.

Just hoping to get the opinions of more experienced folks on how I can approach this set-up. Also, I welcome any critique of the modules I've assembled - any glaring omissions, redundancies (other than the obvious 2 black EG's).

Thanks. This is my first post to go easy.
tardishead
ok I cracked it. I was overcomplicating it. I thought that the last 3 patches were based on the same exact engine. I was not tracking your journey. Its a great technique. Especially with the use of the shuffle and ASR.
sduck
jarnold90 wrote:
Here's my current set-up: https://cdn.modulargrid.net/img/racks/modulargrid_816058.jpg

Just hoping to get the opinions of more experienced folks on how I can approach this set-up. Also, I welcome any critique of the modules I've assembled - any glaring omissions, redundancies.


Welcome! This kind of "rate my rack" type of post is usually best posted in the forum of the relevant format, which in this case would be the Eurorack forum, where you'll get the best reponses. So, try it again over there.
gis_sweden
I'm rebuilding and downsizing my synth. Which modules should I keep. Doepfer A-124 WASP, is that a keeper or not? Maybe I keep it, but not in the starting eleven? After some weeks without inspiration I made this bassoon bagatelle. I'm using the WASP filter... Not for 'the bassoon' but still its a good filter! hihi
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/475930/

The synth I want looks like this https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/926258
The two top rows is one case. The mixer is in another small one. The big case also have some passive functions (ring mod, mult and or). This synth is two DIY modules and a A-190-2 away. And selling the rest. I'm working on that. 1hp free on each row. This is an analog synth for generative atonal strangeness. Nobody have to rate my synth...

jarnold90 wrote:
Here's my current set-up:

You have a good looking synth. For me, important modules are LFOs, VCAs, attenuverters, mixers and sample and holds. These are the engine.
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
I'm rebuilding and downsizing my synth. Which modules should I keep. Doepfer A-124 WASP, is that a keeper or not? Maybe I keep it, but not in the starting eleven? After some weeks without inspiration I made this bassoon bagatelle. I'm using the WASP filter... Not for 'the bassoon' but still its a good filter! hihi
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/475930/

The synth I want looks like this https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/926258
The two top rows is one case. The mixer is in another small one. The big case also have some passive functions (ring mod, mult and or). This synth is two DIY modules and a A-190-2 away. And selling the rest. I'm working on that. 1hp free on each row. This is an analog synth for generative atonal strangeness. Nobody have to rate my synth...

jarnold90 wrote:
Here's my current set-up:

You have a good looking synth. For me, important modules are LFOs, VCAs, attenuverters, mixers and sample and holds. These are the engine.


What strikes me about this rack, from a self-generating point of view, is that you've chosen modulators that are interesting in themselves. They're each probably a lot of fun, but I don't see them forming part of a larger whole. Their inner workings aren't exposed to you to explore and hack.

What I think you'd enjoy is more of the simple things. I'm talking dividers, switches, envelope followers, logic... It makes the rack bigger, but you have more possibilities to explore. As an exercise you might try to recreate the functionality of one of those modulators from scratch yourself, using just simple building-block modules.

Of course I'm just assuming you don't have these already and have chosen to leave them out of the new setup... hmmm.....
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
What strikes me about this rack, from a self-generating point of view, is that you've chosen modulators that are interesting in themselves. They're each probably a lot of fun, but I don't see them forming part of a larger whole. Their inner workings aren't exposed to you to explore and hack.

Thanks for your input. You are right. A smaller synth leads to compromises. I have chosen to build the synth around chaos modules. There will be a lot of patches I cant do. Bye bye 5 cell quantussy patch. Having these "strange" modules makes it not that relevant to share patches. And hitting that sweet spot on jerk off... is more luck than a patch to share.


more generative nonsense....
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/475942/
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
more generative nonsense....
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/475942/


Is this old or new synth? If it's old synth why do you want to change it? If it's new synth I think you're on the right track. thumbs up
colb
cptnal wrote:
...What I think you'd enjoy is more of the simple things. I'm talking dividers, switches, envelope followers, logic... It makes the rack bigger, but you have more possibilities to explore. As an exercise you might try to recreate the functionality of one of those modulators from scratch yourself, using just simple building-block modules.

I agree about the simple stuff. I'm also looking and seeing fewer VCOs than I would want - there's so much mileage in combining multiple oscillators in various ways - FM, AM, Sync, even just mixing them detuned into the same filter and modulating that mixing process.

Personally having spent some time recently exploring generative ideas, I'm finding that I want more low level stuff - inverters, comparators, switching logic, offset attenuverters, precission adders. But also more FX - delays, spring reverb, chorus etc. (I really want a Morphagene, but can't justify the $$$ at the moment). That said, I'd love to try a WMD Sequential Switch Matrix, and/or a Doepfer A-152 Voltage addressed switch. I can also see a lot of potential in some of the features of a Befaco muxslicer (or similar) with it's ability for addressable access to tweakable CV levels. Using these types of devices to control and manipulate the modulation framework of a generative patch seems like it could open up some new areas for exploration... maybe I'll get a Doepfer quad sequential switch instead and find a way with that - creative limitations are beneficial and all that jazz.

One other observation I'd like to throw in from my weird novice/veteran point of view (18 months of Hardware Modular/too many years building software synths and FX in NI Reaktor and Sync Modular), is that in Eurorack, there often seems to be an over-reliance on 'random' and 'chaos' modules. I think it's easier to get satisfying results from deterministic systems based on traditional oscillators and LFOs. Combining these in complex modulation structures employing feedback with various constraints seems to give similarly varied and interesting results, but with more control and potentially more repeatability as well. Maybe that's just me though.
cptnal
colb wrote:
cptnal wrote:
...What I think you'd enjoy is more of the simple things. I'm talking dividers, switches, envelope followers, logic... It makes the rack bigger, but you have more possibilities to explore. As an exercise you might try to recreate the functionality of one of those modulators from scratch yourself, using just simple building-block modules.

I agree about the simple stuff. I'm also looking and seeing fewer VCOs than I would want - there's so much mileage in combining multiple oscillators in various ways - FM, AM, Sync, even just mixing them detuned into the same filter and modulating that mixing process.

Personally having spent some time recently exploring generative ideas, I'm finding that I want more low level stuff - inverters, comparators, switching logic, offset attenuverters, precission adders. But also more FX - delays, spring reverb, chorus etc. (I really want a Morphagene, but can't justify the $$$ at the moment). That said, I'd love to try a WMD Sequential Switch Matrix, and/or a Doepfer A-152 Voltage addressed switch. I can also see a lot of potential in some of the features of a Befaco muxslicer (or similar) with it's ability for addressable access to tweakable CV levels. Using these types of devices to control and manipulate the modulation framework of a generative patch seems like it could open up some new areas for exploration... maybe I'll get a Doepfer quad sequential switch instead and find a way with that - creative limitations are beneficial and all that jazz.

One other observation I'd like to throw in from my weird novice/veteran point of view (18 months of Hardware Modular/too many years building software synths and FX in NI Reaktor and Sync Modular), is that in Eurorack, there often seems to be an over-reliance on 'random' and 'chaos' modules. I think it's easier to get satisfying results from deterministic systems based on traditional oscillators and LFOs. Combining these in complex modulation structures employing feedback with various constraints seems to give similarly varied and interesting results, but with more control and potentially more repeatability as well. Maybe that's just me though.


woah

It's like you've been in my room.

The SSM is very much on my radar, but I must admin the A152 still baffles me. seriously, i just don't get it
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
gis_sweden wrote:
more generative nonsense....
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/475942/


Is this old or new synth? If it's old synth why do you want to change it? If it's new synth I think you're on the right track. thumbs up


I'm only using modules I have decided to keep w00t
gis_sweden
colb wrote:
...there often seems to be an over-reliance on 'random' and 'chaos' modules. I think it's easier to get satisfying results from deterministic systems based on traditional oscillators and LFOs. Combining these in complex modulation structures employing feedback with various constraints seems to give similarly varied and interesting results, but with more control and potentially more repeatability as well. Maybe that's just me though.

I think you are right hihi But still I find chaos satisfying Om They help you lose control... I have two NLC modules to solder.
colb
cptnal wrote:

woah

It's like you've been in my room.

lol
Quote:

The SSM is very much on my radar, but I must admin the A152 still baffles me. seriously, i just don't get it


The downside of the A152 is that I would need to modify it to switch from T&H to S&H... And it is pretty big. But I think I understand the functionality pretty well from reading the Doepfer description. It's been on 'the list' since I started, but I've never seen one on ebay, and I try to buy most of my stuff used or in kit form.
colb
gis_sweden wrote:
colb wrote:
...there often seems to be an over-reliance on 'random' and 'chaos' modules. I think it's easier to get satisfying results from deterministic systems based on traditional oscillators and LFOs. Combining these in complex modulation structures employing feedback with various constraints seems to give similarly varied and interesting results, but with more control and potentially more repeatability as well. Maybe that's just me though.

I think you are right hihi But still I find chaos satisfying Om They help you lose control... I have two NLC modules to solder.

I get that. I just have more trouble maintaining control than losing it Rockin' Banana!
I try and introduce chaos using feedback, so it becomes part of the patch rather than a function of some specialised module. I experimented with building chaos generators years ago in Reaktor with jerk oscillators, and also with a dual pendulum simulation, but never found the results to be particularly exciting.
colb
Here's a completely different take on generative. I hope its OK to post this even though it's software generated, and only modular because I built the generator in a modular coding environment... anyway...
This is an example of bytebeat.

The basic idea is that there is a counter incrementing at the audio sample rate. You write an expression to manipulate the value of the counter using arithmetic and bitwise operators and some more fundamental c style programming operators... Then the lowest 8 bits of the result are sent out as audio.

This idea can produce surprising and unpredictable results.

Here's the expression that generated this example (which goes on for longer than 2 minutes without fully repeating - I just stopped it):




And here's the example - maybe turn down the levels a bit to start with, these things are a bit 'raw' wink
[s]https://soundcloud.com/colray/talking-cross-purposes[/s]

Heh, part of the reason I want a Morphagene is to load a bunch of this stuff into it smile
cptnal
That's a more musical representation than the ones I've heard before. w00t

I'm wondering whether this has anything in common with Turing Machine theory (I don't understand either enough)? There's a lot about it the Grayscale Permutations manual, but I didn't get my head around the finer points at the time. Maybe later...

Meanwhile, I'm wondering whether any enterprising wiggler out there has an A152 and has managed to use it in a way that's apropos to this thread, and if so whether they'd like to share the benefit of their experience?
colb
cptnal wrote:
That's a more musical representation than the ones I've heard before.


I picked that example because it has a constant development, and a short expression. It's possible to create stuff that's a lot more 'musical' in melodic or harmonic terms - although it's always got that gritty in-your-face quality to it. You can even get stuff going with beat, bassline and arp/melody... But that's getting more into the realms of proto-sequencing which isn't really appropriate here in generative corner smile.
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