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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

Serge question
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Buchla, EMS & Serge Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next [all]
Author Serge question
hallospceboy
Seems like the search function is down... I come from the euro land and recently I’m feeling slightly over/underwhelmed. Mostly a Makenoise system, don’t get me wrong I love it! I’ve been building it since January 2013 and I just filled my 6u 104hp. But lately I’ve been wanting to switch and go to Serge. I feel less inspired to play, and also with a new module coming out every other day.... well it’s just too much.
First, am I crazy? I’d like to keep both but feel it’s just gonna be too expensive? How many of you all have switched to Serge? Did you regret it? Wished you didn’t it sooner? Did you keep both systems?
Second, what’s the cheapest way to get into Serge? I can do DIY and I’m not afraid to get my hands dirty. Handful of my Euro is DIY and I built my own case. R*S and 73-75 seem the most doable but still. Took me 5 years to fill a modest smallish case, I can’t really drop that all at once....
Please help me not go broke.... waah
Gandalf
ELBY Designs have their EuroSerge range which is over 30 Serge modules in EuroRack format. You have the option of the modules coming with 3.5mm jacks so they will sit alongside your existing modules or you can opt for the (preferred) 4mm jacks and get the full Serge patching experience. They do modules and kits so you can Serge functionality to your system as your budget permits
pixelmechanic
Bought a used quadslope/creature m-panel combo some years ago and love it. Slowly expanded with some R*S 4x4 modules for a bit more Serge flavour (e.g. NTO, VCM, VCFS). I've one more space for a 4*4 module which ideally will be something 'boring' but useful (I really hope they release the active mixer in 4u soon), and I'm happy with what I have, it feels 'complete'.

I enjoy working with it in terms of sound, space, feel and bananas (which are more solid than stackables)

I sold 6u of Euro about a year later as it was underutilised - quite pleased that at no point have I bought back any of the stuff that I sold!

I kept 6u of my favourites, and also have bought a very small number of newer things. Among the things I kept are things that I think are very expensive for what they are if I were to go for R*S and even more so STS - e.g. logic, clock dividers - and more unusual things - e.g. Benjolin.

Quite soon after I bought into 4u Serge, R*S started selling euro versions of things and I did wonder whether I would/should just buy the VCFQ and VCM ans stick those in my euro case since that for me is the heart of what I use, but I do enjoy 'playing' the 4u format more.

All in all, I'd be more likely to sell off my remaining euro, but feel no real desire to buy more Serge/R*S other than the active mixer (should it come out and I can get past price)


If I were to do it again now, I'd buy R*S DUSG, VCM/EQ, Smooth/Stepped/Slopes (aka Carnivore) and VCFQ/DCSM and be very happy with a compact system! Mantra panel comes closest, but I'd want to swap out sequencer for VCM!
darcmorcel
Hey hallospceboy

I sold a Make Noise 7U system in february this year and downsized to a single LoudestWarning 258 panel (https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=209560).

I wouldn't have kept both systems as I'm just a bedroom wiggler and my only regret is that I didn't hear about Loudest Warning back in early 2017 before I bought the first half of the euro system hihi

It's a good thing that you are a DIY person, you'll be able to build yourself a nice system at a reasonable price !
nurbivore
With Elby EuroSerge and RandomSource 3U modules available, you should probably first decide what about Serge appeals to you? Is it just (just!) the functionality and philosophy of the modules themselves, or is it the physical interface of 4U panels and banana plugs. Both are totally valid reasons on their own.

If it's the former, then I would say just sell off about half of what you've got (assuming your sig link is up to date), pick up a few new modules, and you're good to go. Easy.

Otherwise, well... it's a slightly longer road.

Cheapest option is probably CGS boards and handmade panels. LW panels (Modular Addict or straight from Charlie) are pretty reasonably priced, especially for the quality. I don't think that RandomSource sells just panels, but you could always ask. If you're into DIY, be warned that the RS boards come with all the SMD parts pre-populated, so there isn't really much to do yourself.
muncky
I sold off 9u of Euro a few years ago to go Serge. Built half of it myself, and the other half by Loudest Warning. Built a stack of Buchla, and an Easel remains, and now nearly back at 4 rows of 4u Serge (with a dash of Haible).

Bananas and 4u seem like a more fun/playable way to play, but YMMV.

Perhaps build one row with CGS/RS and see how you like it?
cygmu
As nurbivore said, surely the cheapest way in is to DIY using CGS boards. The source for those boards is Elby Designs
http://www.elby-designs.com/contents/en-us/d77_Serge_Modules.html
but you can also get some at Modular Addict and Synthcube. They are fully licensed from Serge.

I got my start with a couple of Elby's component kits, together with the boards, which takes the hassle out of sourcing parts. After one or two successful builds I started buying the parts myself.

Have a look at e.g. http://www.loudestwarning.co.uk/portfolio/dusg/ to see what the panel wiring situation looks like for these builds. To me it's no big deal but some people really dislike that part of the construction process.

If you don't want to do panel wiring, you can go for Random Source. The price of entry is significantly higher, but there are some circuit updates which may appeal to you.
hallospceboy
Thanks for all the replies!

I DEF want the full experience. 4U and bananas all the way! It's peanut butter jelly time!

Another thing, how compatible are the different formats? Not in terms of patching but in power? I remember reading something about R*S not being compatible with anything else. How will I power this?

Is this how I would go about DIY'ing it?
Get a PCB, panel, parts, and CLee Bracket? (I mean obviously but I don't want to miss anything)

As much as I like doing DIY, Im really bad about piecing something together. I am really good at full kits, but as mentioned earlier, R*S has most SMT on it and Id be pretty bored building...

It seems that sticking to CGS and Loudest Warning is the way to go?
revtor
Might actually turn out cheaper to slowly snag used RS 4u here on the forum..
diophantine
hallospceboy wrote:
I remember reading something about R*S not being compatible with anything else. How will I power this?

It runs on +/-12V with MOTM-156 headers, just like the CGS boards. In fact, some early R*S stuff (like the original Wave Mults & Res EQ) used CGS boards.

But mounting holes are different, so you'd probably want to put R*S stuff in a different boat than any LW stuff.
CLee
diophantine wrote:
But mounting holes are different, so you'd probably want to put R*S stuff in a different boat than any LW stuff.


Unless you’ve got some serious McGuyver skills you’d have to. RS and LW have the mounting holes in different places. LW Panel widths are even inch increments and RS panels are (I believe) 4.25”

Electrically they’re completely compatible though, and also completely compatible with original Serge gear.
luketeaford
I have both a make noise system and a Serge eurorack system. I especially like eurorack with stack cables because there are nice euro only features like cycle switches-- also it can be introduced and learned slowly. Coming from Maths I would have struggled with some things from the dusg since it doesn't retrigger during fall.

However I would also be fine playing only the Serge or only my make noise system-- both great and different instruments. what I like best about make noise, Rene Maths and moddemix are not things that I want or miss in Serge format. seriously, i just don't get it
darcmorcel
luketeaford wrote:
Coming from Maths I would have struggled with some things from the dusg since it doesn't retrigger during fall.


It does when triggered from the black input (and you get sustain).
Prunesquallor
CLee wrote:
diophantine wrote:
But mounting holes are different, so you'd probably want to put R*S stuff in a different boat than any LW stuff.


Unless you’ve got some serious McGuyver skills you’d have to. RS and LW have the mounting holes in different places. LW Panel widths are even inch increments and RS panels are (I believe) 4.25”

Electrically they’re completely compatible though, and also completely compatible with original Serge gear.


Another option is to put R*S modules behind LW panels. You'd have to get the panels made, of course, but that's the option I'm swinging behind at the moment. You could then mount everything on Euro rails. All credit to Wavecircle for this idea.
pelang
here comes a food comparison:

serge: raw, but good organic and local...you need to cook it

eurorack: lots of pre-cooked but as well yummy stuff...

I have both.
wavecircle
Prunesquallor wrote:
CLee wrote:
diophantine wrote:
But mounting holes are different, so you'd probably want to put R*S stuff in a different boat than any LW stuff.


Unless you’ve got some serious McGuyver skills you’d have to. RS and LW have the mounting holes in different places. LW Panel widths are even inch increments and RS panels are (I believe) 4.25”

Electrically they’re completely compatible though, and also completely compatible with original Serge gear.


Another option is to put R*S modules behind LW panels. You'd have to get the panels made, of course, but that's the option I'm swinging behind at the moment. You could then mount everything on Euro rails. All credit to Wavecircle for this idea.


spinning

Charlie is the one deserving of credit, he is great to work with and is happy to try to put anything behind a 4u panel. He was working on a Noisering adaptation which I hastily cancelled, I rue that decision and might try to convince him to do it again if I can get a cheap 2nd hand one.

The R*S PCBs behind an LW panel is a great option, totally seemless. I have an NTO, 8 stage sequencer/programmer and NCOMP from R*S in my system, I also plan to upgrade my active processor to the R*S version. We really do live in peak 4u times.
luketeaford
darcmorcel wrote:
luketeaford wrote:
Coming from Maths I would have struggled with some things from the dusg since it doesn't retrigger during fall.


It does when triggered from the black input (and you get sustain).


Yeah, but now to remove sustain I need to use something else like NCOm to convert gate to trigger. I think Maths is much nicer because it's all available from the panel: trig retriggers, signal input is for asr, cycle input is like dusg trig input.
darcmorcel
I must agree that Maths is a really good take on the dusg (they should upgrade it with 1Voct in by the way).
But we're not helping the OP at all, as he may end up getting 4U AND keeping his euro lol
CLee
darcmorcel wrote:
luketeaford wrote:
Coming from Maths I would have struggled with some things from the dusg since it doesn't retrigger during fall.


It does when triggered from the black input (and you get sustain).


May be a bit nit picky but the black input isn't a trigger in. The black input is an analog input, the output will follow the black input ramping up or down at the rate set by the rate knobs. Trigger inputs will start a process which will continue regardless of what happens at the trigger in after that.

You can get AR or ASR envelopes using a gate at the black input, but the gate needs to be longer than the Attack setting, You can get ADSR envelopes from the DSG by sending a gate to the black input and a trigger to TRIG IN.

Like I say, nit picking. But just wanted to make sure anyone reading who doen't already have the DUSG isn't mislead...
hallospceboy
I think my route would be to go back to 3U of Makenoise, like an augmented System Cartesian. Sell the rest and invest that money into Serge. Only problem is how much reading I do on the forum and how little communicating... I hate to just add dumb comments on threads to increase my post count. Not saying I will, but I should look a little deeper how to best serve this community!

Back to Serge.
Im thinking something similar to La Bestia II and a Mantra. Id also love to throw a resonant EQ and a phaser somewhere in there. I think maybe a DUSG and not the XL as in the R*S
Now to start my journey!
cygmu
hallospceboy wrote:

Back to Serge.
Im thinking something similar to La Bestia II and a Mantra. Id also love to throw a resonant EQ and a phaser somewhere in there. I think maybe a DUSG and not the XL as in the R*S
Now to start my journey!


I agree that the module choice on those two R*S panels seems good-but-not-quite-perfect and a few changes here and there could make for something really great.

I'd definitely recommend getting in touch with Charlie Loudest Warning (aka the bad producer on this forum) if you are thinking along these lines. He may be able to help you put together a custom full panel, or just supply the individual panels in LW format, or build stuff for you. Look at this sequencer he recently made, for goodness' sake! Incredible stuff.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BxEsXhTFhXk/
hallospceboy
cygmu
Shit I didn’t even think of asking for a full custom panel! If I go this route, I have to follow the inch rules? NTO is 3”, VCM is 2” and so forth?

This might open a lot of doors now. Gonna start planning 17” of It's peanut butter jelly time! It's peanut butter jelly time! It's peanut butter jelly time! ! I’ll be back with ideas.

I just got real excited guys, this is why I started modular thanks!!
cygmu
It's probably best if you get in touch with Charlie to discuss... I can't say what he can or can't do and of course he may be booked up with work and other things -- but just ask. (I think he's away for a few days right now, by the way.)
Prunesquallor
hallospceboy wrote:
Shit I didn’t even think of asking for a full custom panel! If I go this route, I have to follow the inch rules? NTO is 3”, VCM is 2” and so forth?


Yes, but also no. Charlie really crams the panels, getting more in than is possible than individual modules. Take a look at the Sing To Me panel on MG, for example. Guinness ftw!
cygmu
And even if you stick to the grid, Charlie puts 17 columns on a panel rather than the 16 that early Serge, STS and Random Source do.
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