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no-input mixer experience
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Synth Noise  
Author no-input mixer experience
igormpc
http://soundcloud.com/igormedeiros/no-input-mixer-002-mx802a
(my behringer mx802a self-patched).

what do you think?
do you know where i can find more info about no-input mixer?

thx in advance
igor
xart
I remember this fad of the avant garden in the 90's... hihi

Google Fucking Exists Toshimaru Nakamura ... he does some great stuff!
My favorite are the recordings with Keith Rowe + Nakamura. SlayerBadger!

PS- I dig your track! Good stuff, thanks! thumbs up
Lyonel
Cuicas all along ! Very Brazilian w00t
igormpc
@lyonel
i prefer buchla's cuicas than behringer's:

(doug's nice samba!)
hihi
Mood Organ
You might also check out AVVA

Toshimaru Nakamura + Billy Roisz

no-input mixer audio and video

They released a DVD on Erstwhile
Lyonel
that's a very great one, indeed (doug's nice samba) !
Hi5
keep in mind though that the no-input mixer nonsense has not been a stand alone situation. The few times I have played with/along side Nakamura-san he has had effect processors to get more than 4 sounds out of the rig and create loops. It is a cute concept and all but as your primary 'instrument' there aren't many places to go with it without external help. The music tends to be minimal for a reason.

although I will take no-input over a solo contact mic performance or 4 motors on pieces of metal any day!

(maybe you can tell I don't care for the trend of japanese reductionism)
onrust nv
well with a behringer mixer(who cares if it breaks) it's easy to make weird noises. 2 or 3 of these mixers and some behringer delays and a summing mixer and you can play a genuine no-input set.
Hi5
fuck no-input.
no-output is the future man.
onrust nv
no input SlayerBadger!

NO FUTURE eyes...
bryan
igormpc wrote:
do you know where i can find more info about no-input mixer?


one of the more esoteric things i've found on google scholar search..

it's a PDF of someone's thesis project on this very thing:

http://knut.klingt.org/docs/Knut%20Aufermann%20MA%20Sonic%20Arts.pdf
igormpc
very useful material @bryan !!!! applause

thx!!!!!!
Soy Sos
I thought there were some great rhythms and patterns within. Maybe for the hell of it throw a cheap (behringer?) compressor at the output to tame some of those peaks a bit. Also certainly don't hesitate to insert FX pedals in some of those loops. I saw this great couple from Chicago do a beautiful performance with interconnected feedback matrixes. Different thing I know. I liked the other piece as well. You should put up more music.
knut
I'm glad someone found my thesis on feedback music. I can also recommend the 'feedback' issue of the Resonance magazine, which is available online here:
http://www.l-m-c.org.uk/text/feedback.html

For my online sound installation based on a mix of no-input mixer and no-input fm transmitter sounds, check this:
http://knut.klingt.org/installations.html

cheers Knut
igormpc
thx @knut
good info on your thesis and on the links --
i didn't know resonance magazine, great reading!

thx @soysos for your suggestions.
nice that you liked the other song also, i really like it -
i am just waiting for my new analog modular system to join my nord modular in other songs! smile
jnumberg
After some (never enough) research, I'm still confused about using/routing modular gear for no-or-minimal input.

I'm familiar only with no input mixing with pedals and am unsure how or if it's even possible to translate this to modular.

Case 1 on a mixer, e.g. cheap behringer:
Left Main Out to Lin In 1, Right Main Out or Phones to Monitor
This gives clicks with varying frequency with low-end turned up
getting shrill and constant with highs pushed up, lows down

transl. ??? An amplifier like A-183-3 with Out 1 to In 1 and
Out 2 to Mixer/Mon.? Some sort of filter for varying frequency???

Case 2. Same as above with Delay like A-188-1 patched between the ouroboric line in the Amp from Out1 to In1. On a mixer, turning down the delay time to around 15 ms makes a comb filter sound. Does this translate to modular arena??

Case 3. With the Behringer, I can then mix the delay line, from R-out, and the straight feedback, L-out, Phones out to monitor. This allows one to find points at which the addition of feedback to the mix changes the tone of the delay/comb to a new equilibrium.

With a bit of messing around one can create tone shifts that resemble something musical. So would this be possible with something like two A-183-3's one simply plugged into itself the other plugged into itself with the delay,then both to a mixer??? Something seems wrong here!

I'm imagining a modular with a bunch of delays in parallel, I guess, plus some filters? LFO? maybe a comb filter for some Karplus-Strong hits to set delays into oscillation.

tldr:noob wants to know how do you do no-input stuff on modular
Pockets McCoy
jnumberg wrote:
tldr:noob wants to know how do you do no-input stuff on modular


Well, no-input feedback mixers are primitive-ass oscillators. The beauty of a modular is that you don't have to "push anything into oscillation" because you've got oscillators that do that for you without having to patch anything. Plenty of ways to dirty it up from there (and there are also some straight up wild-ass oscillators that dirty themselves up all over the place and eventually can't tell if they're wearing pants or not).

While there are such things as external audio input modules, a modular synth is about as no-input as you can get. If you're seriously thinking about going modular, make sure you do a bunch of research and know exactly what you're looking at before diving into it with hopeful ears, closed eyes, and an open wallet. I don't mean that offensively at all, you're just approaching it from a standpoint that's only going to complicate things. No-input mixer and some pedals to full-on modular is by no means a smooth transition (unless you've already got knowledge of/experience with synthesis and happened to be playing with mixer feedback due to curiosity and/or a lack of funds for a synth). A modular gives you a tremendously larger toolbox, as well as tons of electronic extra hands to turn knobs for you while your hands are busy with other things.

"How can I translate no-input mixer techniques to modular?" is the wrong question to be asking yourself. Rather, try something like "I've got this mixer patched up like this...what exactly is going on?"

To actually answer your questions directly:

Case 1: Your mixer is basically a way-too-complicated oscillator (with 3 separate, limited controls over the frequency that all behave differently). Modular: An oscillator module. Several waveform outputs (inaudible sine/triangle waves and the ticketty-tick of squares/saws/pulses at a low frequency setting, all popping up into audio range with a twist of the frequency knob (or a control voltage to the frequency cv input)). Possibly even one with a variable-waveform out, or internal waveshaping if you want something more directly akin to mixer feedback with pedals in the loop.

Case 2: Yep, you can do comb filters with modular delays. Or comb filter modules.

Case 3: Something is wrong there. Modular synths take you WAY beyond the need to "search" around for sweet spots to make sounds that "resemble something musical". Based on what's been said, what's wrong with that picture? Think much more simply...you don't have to "do anything wrong" or use something for anything other than its intended purpose(s) to make things happen, you've got modules that do those things already. You seem to be quite familiar with circumventing the "intent" of a piece of equipment in order to get it to behave differently. The modular gets rid of all that; as I said, ponder what's actually going on in your mixer feedback setup and figure out which modules already perform those functions without having to abuse or work around the limitations of a device not intended for the purpose in question.

nanners
jnumberg
Wow thank you so much for the well thought-out reply. Yeah I'm so used to circumventing mixers and pedals, I'm not sure I could even do it right...I just have this feeling modular might be what I've been looking for, sonically, all along, having been ignorant of modular stuff for an unreasonably long time.

Yeah, and this whole time I thought I didn't need any vco's, and would just go on producing my basic palette with delay/mixer feedback. You've revealed how foolish that idea was, thank you, haha. I guess it would be nice to just be able to get those sounds on-the-fly w/o wrangling a usable tone with 3+ separate lines of feedback...

I really had no idea mixers had anything to do with oscillators, but I know next to nothing about electronics...sorry, I'm learning.

Thank you for the sage advice, I'm much better informed and will continue research.
slovo
If you like mixer music, you'll probably love modulars, but the beauty of making no-input mixer music seems to really be in its simple, cheap, creative nature, imho. So buying a modular to get it done, yeah, seems like major overkill -- like building a custom Porsche to upgrade your go-kart. but buying a modular will make awesome noises, yes. SlayerBadger! You just... won't qualify for go-kart races anymore. You might want to start by buying one of the many semi-modulars available first, to get an idea for what all the pieces do, and how they interact. If you buy used, you can probably get back close to what you put into it, cashwise, if/when you decide that a full modular is for you.

Re-reading your post I see you're talking about no-input pedals music, but I am lazy, so kindly replace "mixer music" with "pedals music" lol. But in actuality, you're already very familiar with modular synthesis, you just don't know it yet. Your basic sound is probably feedback, right, which is somewhat equivalent to a very limited sine oscillator (actually, isn't it functionally more like a self-oscillating res filter?). This is what Mr. McCoy was trying to explain. So yeah, you need to learn a little bit of terminology (try the Synthesizers.com page?) but otherwise the theory is the same. More inputs and outputs, more controls, more control. However, modulars are usually designed to need a special power supply; if you don't know anything about electronics, then you'l need to fork over usually $3-500 just to get started with a case and power, before buying any modules. Semi-modulars are great for avoiding this and can teach you a lot, and usually sound great, but if you're a really wild pedals-player then you might feel a bit handcuffed, as I'm not aware of any cheap, manufactured semi-modulars that get particularly wild or brutal...
Pockets McCoy
Then again, with anything modular you can kind of make anything sound insane and brutal. I mean, there are wilder things than others, but even with a pre-laid-out semi-modular you can easily get into voltage controlled audio rate modulations, which can vary from subtly beautiful textures or overbearingly complex and abrasive clouds of sonic violence. Also, voltage control in general...no longer limited to only being able to tweak 2 knobs at any given time.



In my experience teaching modular concepts to people used to working with mixer/pedal loops, the biggest hurdle to get over is that it's no longer a straight chain/loop. Here's a good example:

For a complex sound being rhythmically gated in a mixer/pedal loop situation, the way to achieve this is with a tremolo pedal at the end of the chain.

In modular land, it's:

output of the complex sound you've created -->VCA (amp. knob full CCW)
squarewave LFO --> VCA amplitude cv in

People used to loops, when presented with the task of doing something like that on a modular, almost always try this after having had the function of each module described to them:

output of the complex sound you've created --> VCA --> some LFO input
or
output of the complex sound you've created --> some LFO input --> VCA

Just a matter of getting accustomed to not-strictly-linear patching, i.e. the VCA needing a CV connection from an LFO instead of having a "speed" knob on the VCA itself and no options for control other than a pre-wired LFO.
felixer
Hi5 wrote:
no-output is the future.

rofwl lol!
never tried the 'no-input' method myself. in fear i might blow something up hihi
but methinks the analogy between that and a 'real' osc is like coming to the same point from different sides: trying to gain more control vs trying to mess it up ....
igormpc: enjoy your new modular! and keep doing what YOU think is right thumbs up
jnumberg
Thanks again for the replies! Everyone on this board has been amazingly helpful and nice, the internet is not used to this.

So maybe start with an evolver?

I was thinking a little more all out 8_) like something based around the stilton and evin, so I can ease my way into modular from pedal/mixer stuff..

Yeah all this CViery is a little confusing...Thanks Pockets, that makes a lot more sense, so it's kind of like difference between serial, mixer, and parallel, cv, loops. No-input stuff has always made me want to be an octopus, so I think i could really benefit from cv.

Lately, I've added an mbase01 w/ overdrive pedal going to the trigger in. Since everything's interacting, I can use a delay (hiwatt tape echo) feedback loop on a separate line in to change rhythms pattern while the overdrive volume controls the rate of the beat. So it is sort of a parallel control system, though not really.... seriously, i just don't get it

I've found that I always need a minimal input in a no-input, the mbase or sampler (mpc500), certain hits will make the static delay and feedback lines modulate or jump from one static tone to another, thus creating simple, unpredictable melodies. I'd like to share this stuff others; I'm working on uploading a little something. Edit Uploaded clip to tumblr, not sure how to get it in the message board...mbase01 with feedback and delay

Thanks again for all your amazing help, best message board ever! I have so much to learn, good thing I'm unemployed!

we're not worthy
slovo
Pockets McCoy wrote:
Then again, with anything modular you can kind of make anything sound insane and brutal. I mean, there are wilder things than others, but even with a pre-laid-out semi-modular you can easily get into voltage controlled audio rate modulations, which can vary from subtly beautiful textures or overbearingly complex and abrasive clouds of sonic violence.


Yeah, now that I think, you're probably right, I don't have a lot of experience with semi-modulars, but it would stand to reason, simply being able to patch audio rate into anything is going to make for some pretty crazy sounds.

jnumberg wrote:
So maybe start with an evolver?


Wow, it will really depend on a LOT of factors, but this is something I would not really recommend in this case. The Evolver is a pretty capable sort of a VA synth, so I guess in that sense it would teach you about subtractive synthesis, but it's not CV-accessible at all. It's a MIDI synth. We're going old school here. wink I think you should read a little more and also maybe check out the analoguehaven.com website for things like the Spectral Neptune, Mars, MFB Kraftzwerg, Doepfer Dark Energy, Vermona PerFourMer, any of the many ASol semi-modulars, or, is the Oberheim re-issue SEM available? These synths, just off the top of my head, I debated getting before I went modular. In the end I decided to just take the plunge and get into 5U. But these were serious candidates because they all pack a lot of capability in a small and comparatively cheap package. They are also all legitimately modular-friendly, and won't be a waste of your money if you go all in. Which one is best is for you to decide. You need to think about your ideas for sounds, and try some Youtube demos, there are a pretty good number of them, and, well, they are not all cheap. In fact they are almost all more expensive than an Evolver...

jnumberg wrote:
Yeah all this CViery is a little confusing...Thanks Pockets, that makes a lot more sense, so it's kind of like difference between serial, mixer, and parallel, cv, loops. No-input stuff has always made me want to be an octopus, so I think i could really benefit from cv.


I think you're catching on, but honestly, I wouldn't stress too much about it being too complicated. You must be pretty committed if you're willing to do what you've already gotten done. I think modulars will be confusing at times, but still always provide you with plenty of cool options. Even when I buy the "wrong" pieces, I still have plenty to do with them, since I am still a noob, I can't really be all that disappointed! The big question will be your budget. Not to scare you off, but to give you an idea, if spending $2000 sounds like an ok place to start, then you might just want to jump in with both feet. You can get some use out of a $1000 system, but you'll have to plan hard, and not expect too much -- possibly half of that cash will go to the case and power supply. So, yeah, for $300-1000 you can get a pretty bitchin semi-modular (especially used!!), or if you have lots of cash burning a hole in your pocket, welcome to the no-pockets club (Mr. McCoy excepted)! Drunk Banana
felixer
cheapest way to get started with a modular is prob the doepfer a-100MC mini/beauty/lunchbox case: gives you four slots for modules. eurorack has a wide range of manufacturers making lots of very different stuff. starting off with maybe a filter, lfo and vca to reduce the 'octopus feeling' (i know exactly what you mean ;-) ....
and don't be fooled into thinking that you must/should get the expensive modules to get good results. quite often it's not better, just different ....
getting into midi stuff is nice and has some 'instant gratification' but in the long run i think you will get stuck again. midi was designed to couple keyboards and is ok at that but for wilder things it's simply to slow. even internally a lot of digital synths run out of gas if you go crazy .... nice thing about analog is that it's 'instantanious' and you can have an unlimited amount of modulation going on at any speed .... it feels very 'direct'. which is, i think, what you are used to with the feedback things you're doing now.
but as always: ymmv nodnod take your time to research and maybe try things out at some local wiggler?
FearKonstruktor
Recently i had some recordings with no-input mixer and my pedalboard too.

SPUDBOY WILSON
Hi5 wrote:
fuck no-input.
no-output is the future man.


you are made the very funny yes now. Clap

I'm new to 99.9999999 % of the conceptual continuity of genres/movements /styles, does no input mean no mixers?
I've heard of no lap tops
no CDs or mini disks
and much earlier Testosterone driven rock who's creedo was just my guitar a cord and my amp, fx's are bull shit for ...etc. etc.

is what I hear and enjoy dependent on the means of production
do I care if real musician or a synclavier performed "G spot tornado"? no.
I liked jazz from hell because I liked what I heard same as John Lee Hooker , Kraftwerk, Neurosis, Miles Davis acoustic and electric. Tinfoil Hat Eric Cartman

some body get's and idea and pimps it into some kind of purist shtick so that they can be cooler than thou Tinfoil Hat ..... HUH? maybe? rules in noise, come on give me a break. quick somebody pass out some john cage for folks to read ...to summize:
SOUND: IF YOU LIKE IT , IT'S MUSIC, IF YOU DON'T IT'S NOISE. j.c.
SPUDBOY WILSON
knut wrote:
I'm glad someone found my thesis on feedback music. I can also recommend the 'feedback' issue of the Resonance magazine, which is available online here:
http://www.l-m-c.org.uk/text/feedback.html



I found this one and I gave it a Book mark cause it's very cool to me.
felixer
SPUDBOY WILSON wrote:

I liked jazz from hell

+1 thumbs up
funny thing is: frank zappa also sounded great with a guitar amp 'with just an on/off switch'. it is called 'talent' applause
knut
knut wrote:
I can also recommend the 'feedback' issue of the Resonance magazine, which is available online here:
http://www.l-m-c.org.uk/text/feedback.html


I am afraid the URL mentioned above is dead, a pdf of the magazine is now available here:
http://knut.klingt.org/docs/resonance_9_2_feedback.pdf

cheers Knut
don h
knut wrote:

I am afraid the URL mentioned above is dead, a pdf of the magazine is now available here:
http://knut.klingt.org/docs/resonance_9_2_feedback.pdf

cheers Knut


Very much appreciated!
felixer
don h wrote:
knut wrote:

I am afraid the URL mentioned above is dead, a pdf of the magazine is now available here:
http://knut.klingt.org/docs/resonance_9_2_feedback.pdf

cheers Knut


Very much appreciated!

+1 thumbs up
SPUDBOY WILSON
knut wrote:
I'm glad someone found my thesis on feedback music. I can also recommend the 'feedback' issue of the Resonance magazine, which is available online here:
http://www.l-m-c.org.uk/text/feedback.html

For my online sound installation based on a mix of no-input mixer and no-input fm transmitter sounds, check this:
http://knut.klingt.org/installations.html

cheers Knut


thank you very much for the hot hot tip.
very clear and entertaining, entirely to tasty to be real academic research,
to please the dons add a lot more sand, and let dry.
very well done
cheers applause
SPUDBOY WILSON
felixer wrote:
SPUDBOY WILSON wrote:

I liked jazz from hell

+1 thumbs up
funny thing is: frank zappa also sounded great with a guitar amp 'with just an on/off switch'. it is called 'talent' applause


Talent and a lot of intellectual horse power.
he defended school music programs as a means of stopping drug usage and gangs, free speech ,stuck up for larry flint when they were going after him, he did the best anti-speed public service spot in the history of public service announcement . Frank Supported KPFA fm during donation drive with special
bonus shwag i.e. custom T-shirts recordings that you could only get through subscribing to the station. he said some thing to the effect , if you don't like this station fine, it's good for you to get another perspective. ( referring to listening to some thing other than corporate double-speak media.)

and yes I own all of his guitar stuff, shut up and play your guitar et al
I really enjoyed his guitar playing, still do actually.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Zappa
bryan
knut wrote:
knut wrote:
I can also recommend the 'feedback' issue of the Resonance magazine, which is available online here:
http://www.l-m-c.org.uk/text/feedback.html


I am afraid the URL mentioned above is dead, a pdf of the magazine is now available here:
http://knut.klingt.org/docs/resonance_9_2_feedback.pdf

cheers Knut


Knut, thanks for keeping that available and for the research you've put into this area of feedback music-making. It's interesting reading and inspiration.
felixer
SPUDBOY WILSON wrote:

and yes I own all of his guitar stuff, shut up and play your guitar et al
I really enjoyed his guitar playing, still do actually.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Zappa

+1 thumbs up ZAPPA RULES!
peh
Chefkirk and hal mcgee have released a great set of no input mixer tones:

http://www.halmcgee.com/nimbus.html

there's a cdr available and a download at

http://www.archive.org/details/ChefkirkandHalMcGeeNimbus

check it out!
don h
peh wrote:
Chefkirk and hal mcgee have released a great set of no input mixer tones:

http://www.halmcgee.com/nimbus.html

there's a cdr available and a download at

http://www.archive.org/details/ChefkirkandHalMcGeeNimbus

check it out!


This is really wonderful, thanks for pointing it out!
I'm loving these too!
http://halmcgee.com/apartmentmusic7.html
felixer
nice! thumbs up
carlcalm
Hi5 wrote:
fuck no-input.
no-output is the future man.


I see yr from Chicago, I just moved from there. Reason I bring it up is I have a homie there that rocks "no-output" turntable, believe he has played with Toshi using that set up.
Mood Organ
carlcalm wrote:
Hi5 wrote:
fuck no-input.
no-output is the future man.


I see yr from Chicago, I just moved from there. Reason I bring it up is I have a homie there that rocks "no-output" turntable, believe he has played with Toshi using that set up.


What, like a silent performance?
carlcalm
He mic's a turntable that has no output. Suppose that is why I threw the quotes on there. It is surely as much of a conceptual joke as it is a serious approach but it sounds right on. He is big into modular, electronics, DIY... so he may even be on the forum.
Mood Organ
Haha - OK fair enough. I was picturing a guy DJing and no sound coming out. applause I guess all turntables have that 'acoustic' output as well as the Line...
gde
carlcalm wrote:
He mic's a turntable that has no output. Suppose that is why I threw the quotes on there. It is surely as much of a conceptual joke as it is a serious approach but it sounds right on. He is big into modular, electronics, DIY... so he may even be on the forum.


howdy!

yeh, im here...
i started off improvising with percussion and lots of friction based techniques and though instead of moving around the drum in a circle to create the friction... i could just use a turntable to do that work and then i could toy with the objects a bit more

its been years since ive had a turntable with a needle on it, or else i probably would have incorporated that now and then. sometimes i perform totally acoustic with it (actually i did for the first year or so i was using it) but then started using a mic and volume pedal to help amplify it at certain times (but not all times!) during a performance. also, the techniques/instrument came before the name

heres a recently posted recording of a live set with it
http://soundcloud.com/pro-you/nick-hoffman-and-aaron-zarzutzki-live-08 -08-10-fort-wayne-in/s-4Vi6W
the other guy, nick hoffman, plays trumpet, sewing machine, and drum machine for this show
jonah
Thanks for the link Resonance Magazine it was interesting reading! I'd never heard of it before.

The no-input technique also works great with old samplers. You can get started with just one, but it's pretty fun use multiple cheap rack samplers and patch them back into each other. If they have built in midi controllable effects things can get really interesting.
pentd
knut / oliver / all those other folks at klingt.org are mad scientists
cracklehunter
Hi,

Any idea how one can keep the volume from the mixer's main output constant while messing with a No Input Mixer Board? I am looking for a technique to capture low volume noise like Lowercase and Onkyokei music.

Thanks
Mood Organ
cracklehunter wrote:
Hi,

Any idea how one can keep the volume from the mixer's main output constant while messing with a No Input Mixer Board? I am looking for a technique to capture low volume noise like Lowercase and Onkyokei music.

Thanks


You might try a limiter or compressor.
cracklehunter
Mood Organ wrote:
cracklehunter wrote:
Hi,

Any idea how one can keep the volume from the mixer's main output constant while messing with a No Input Mixer Board? I am looking for a technique to capture low volume noise like Lowercase and Onkyokei music.

Thanks


You might try a limiter or compressor.


Okay. Will try that.
felixer
Mood Organ wrote:
I was picturing a guy DJing and no sound coming out. applause

actually that is a good concept. everybody can listen to their own good music instead of being subjected to the trash most dj's produce.
and i do like the concept of the 'silent disco': everbody wears headphones. i even saw one where they had different channels on different colored 'phones so you'll see people dancing on different tunes at the same time. in a park in the middle of the night and no-one (of the people living there and wanting to sleep) was bothered. great idea!!
notmiserlouagain
Hey is this thread still about no-input-mixing and feedback loops?

There´s some good reading material on feedback on the electro-music composition subforum...

One thing holds true for all art: the way it is produced influences the outcome, the way it is produced therefore matters. It is not the same if something is produced with a chain/network of audio devices (David Tudor style) or with a modular.

In hindsight I am verry happy to have to sell my Eurorack modular, my inspiration was more and more strangled with all this highpriced consumerism fetish stuff around me /disclaim: my personal view only!
A modular is very good for extremly complex deeply thought out patches, too complex for me. When I´m making electronic noise (I´m active as guitarist/bassist too), my work process is improvised and intuitive, I don´t want to get too much into analyzing and pondering what I´m doing.
A Benjolin or two, a casio sk1, a couple of strange audio boxes and loopers: makes me happy all the time.

Same thing with no-input-mixing: is the mixer a poor oscillator? Yes. But what is it also? An inspirational device that will surprise you and be chaotically unpredictable (and cost not much/is lying around anyway).

Though the power supply situation is a real pita with standalone devices!
felixer
i think i described my setup before. but her it is (again): the basis is an old vermona 2*10band eq. a really old one with inductors and no ic's. to get it to feedback i use two ART tube mp's. for gain and also because i need to flip the phase. those have jackoutputs (going to the input of the eq) and xlr outputs (going to the mixer for amplification) usually there is some fx in the feedback loop. either before the preamp (gitarboxes) or after it (line level stuff).
that's it. pretty portable and very easy/clear to work with. i'm guessing any decent eq/preamp combi will do the trick. although obviously the inductors do have an influence on the sound. it goes very deep, freq.wise. and you can get nice am effects if you open up the lowest octave. that's how i make bird/insect sounds.
those vermona's go for less then 100 euro on ebay. good old eastgerman technology. will prob hold untill the end of times. and easy to fix if something should go wrong (all thru-hole parts ofcourse and a classical psu).
maybe scrachy faders are harder to replace.
notmiserlouagain
Hey yes I have that old Vermona 2010 eq too, disassembled for a couple of years now meh since yes the old faders are totally crapped out...

Always thinking of recalculating the frequencies for a Serge ResEQ distribution or upgrading to opamps (because the transistor circuit is not that good /headroom). Best would probably to drop in faders and a couple new electrolytics and use it stock...

Thanks felixer for describing your setup!
felixer
i don't think the freq. are all that important. each band is pretty wide. not for surgical eq. everything interacts and that is prob the key to it's nice sound.
used it for a while to beef up weak sounds. could do with another in fact.
that said the serge is interesting but i never tried one ... his spacing in seventh instead of oktaves prob means it is much sharper in response. i do have some older mxr eq's i could experiment with. but now i'm waiting for my lyra8 to arrive. another not soo exact tool i have high hopes for ...
cracklehunter
Hi,

I use a Behringer 802, Zoom G1Next and Behringer HM300 to create no input feedback loops. If no input technique turns a mixer board into a crude synthesized, is it possible to treat each channel feedloop as a separate oscillator to create individual waveforms like in a synthesizer - sine, square, saw tooth, pulse, etc? And if it is possible, are there any specific pedals for each waveform?

Let me know your take.

Thanks.
felixer
a dist/fuzz type pedal turns everything into a sort of squarewave.
filtering away overtones should get you in the direction of a sine.
but much easier to get some standard vco, if you want those.
btw lyra has arrived. and it sounds great, but nothing like feedback. feedback in the lyra means fm.
cracklehunter
felixer wrote:
a dist/fuzz type pedal turns everything into a sort of squarewave.
filtering away overtones should get you in the direction of a sine.
but much easier to get some standard vco, if you want those.
btw lyra has arrived. and it sounds great, but nothing like feedback. feedback in the lyra means fm.


That's interesting. Could you please explain how to go about filtering the overtones? Is it possible with pedals? I have not used VCO's till now in my no input practice. As of now, my main focus is to use mixer, pedals, exposed audio jacks and tape instruments to create corroded or minimal noise.
felixer
easiest i just eq. then comes some vcf that can follow the frequencies your playing. that's only practicle if that source is a vco. methods of following pitch tend to be either slow or imprecise. often both.
i'd just get a good parametric eq and adjust for every case. maybe get a big knob for the freq to make it easier to grab. i'm sure there are some pedals that do that. a grafic prob isn't precise enough.
cracklehunter
felixer wrote:
easiest i just eq. then comes some vcf that can follow the frequencies your playing. that's only practicle if that source is a vco. methods of following pitch tend to be either slow or imprecise. often both.
i'd just get a good parametric eq and adjust for every case. maybe get a big knob for the freq to make it easier to grab. i'm sure there are some pedals that do that. a grafic prob isn't precise enough.


Okay. So parametric is better than graphic? And also, does it help tusing an octave pedal?
felixer
you don't need a fully parametric one. just a highcut and the freq where that starts. and make that as sharp a cutoff as possible. might want to consider a 24 dB/oct moog-type thing. most eq's have a rather shallower cutoff, say 6 or 12 dB/oct. and for conventional eq work that is better as to not be too intrusive on the sound. often gentle eq is what is needed with moderate slopes.
octave pedals come in many flavours. the old ones simple make a squarewave an oct below and let you mix that with the original. newer ones are in fact harmonizers (like the whammy pedal and it's derivatives). it will not help you to get cleaner waveshapes.
cracklehunter
felixer wrote:
you don't need a fully parametric one. just a highcut and the freq where that starts. and make that as sharp a cutoff as possible. might want to consider a 24 dB/oct moog-type thing. most eq's have a rather shallower cutoff, say 6 or 12 dB/oct. and for conventional eq work that is better as to not be too intrusive on the sound. often gentle eq is what is needed with moderate slopes.
octave pedals come in many flavours. the old ones simple make a squarewave an oct below and let you mix that with the original. newer ones are in fact harmonizers (like the whammy pedal and it's derivatives). it will not help you to get cleaner waveshapes.


Thank you bro. Really helpful advice.
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